Thank You To

TRANSCRIPTION  of Chapter 10 of Season 2

Brandi Sea 0:05 Welcome to Design Speaks. The podcast that helps you discover uncommon inspiration, take control of your creativity and create work that gets noticed. I’m your host, Brandi Sea. Joining me is my co host, Julie haider. This week, we’re gonna be talking about how to communicate clearly with clients. Stay tuned for that coming up later in the show. Hi, Julie. Julie Haider 0:34 Hey, Brandi. Brandi Sea 0:35 Our psychic link has done it again. We are both wearing some sort of version of pink. It’s very weird, psychic link pink. It’s great. I kind of like it. Now. I feel like it’s like a personal challenge. Now every time I record, I feel like we’re gonna have to try to match it. Julie Haider 0:54 Yeah, I mean, can we do it a fifth time? Wait, is this the fifth time? Brandi Sea 0:58 This is the fifth? I think this is the fifth time we’ve Okay, so can we do it a sixth time? We’ll have to see you. We’ll have to wait and see. Yeah. So, um, this week… I have a question for you about a game you may have played as a child as a teenager? Do you remember the game telephone? Julie Haider 1:18 Yes. Brandi Sea 1:20 What do you remember about the game of telephone? For those youngsters in our audience who may not know what? Julie Haider 1:28 Yeah, so everybody sits in a circle. And one person starts by coming up with some sort of, I guess, phrase or sentence or whatever. And they whisper to the person next to them, and then that person whispers it to the one next to them. And it when it gets all the way back around to the original person, that last person says what they heard. And it’s usually nowhere near what it started out as nowhere near. Brandi Sea 1:54 So this happens all the time, just in life. Like, there are so many times where I’ve been communicating with my husband, my kids, my parents, any you know, friends, and you say something, and you realize they didn’t understand what I was saying, or they didn’t hear me at all. Or maybe they were just ignoring me. But communicating with clients can sometimes feel like a game of telephone, it’s like, yeah, you say something, and you are like certain that you were like pretty clear. And then over the course of working with them, you realize that like, they either didn’t understand what I said, or they just don’t care, and they’re gonna do this anyway. So sometimes it can be pretty simple. Sometimes it can be really devastating, depending on what miscommunication was, Julie Haider 2:49 It can create some real problems. Brandi Sea 2:51 Real like money related problems. So more on that in a little bit. We’re gonna be talking about clients and communicating. But what have you been up to lately? Julie Haider 3:05 Um, I am planning some some nice hikes for the next few months before we get too far into winter when I don’t really want to go out anymore. Or at least in the mountains, do you not hike in the winter? No, I do. Okay, so since we live in New Mexico, I have like this kind of plan for things where in the winter I hike in the desert, because it’s the one time you can actually bear it. Yeah, yeah. And not die. Um, Brandi Sea 3:36 You have like a hiking strategy. I like it! Julie Haider 3:41 It got messed up this year because of COVID. Because, right when I was like, thinking that I was going to go to all these desert places. I wasn’t going anywhere. Um, yeah. So anyway, so cat is switching to from like doing mountain stuff in the summer when it’s so hot. And that makes it a little cooler. But I have like a huge list of desert locations that I want to start hitting up as soon as the weather starts to cool off. So I’m excited for that. And yeah, there’s just like a million places in the state to go and so I have to figure out like, which one do I want to go to first. Brandi Sea 4:19 Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. Part of why I don’t like to hike in New Mexico as a general rule is, it’s it’s usually just like not my kind of pretty. Like, I like lots of trees and shade and water features, which as we determined last episode, not a lot of ocean around here. And by not a lot, we mean none. Yeah. So it’s like Kenny loves to hike. And so for me, I’m just like, what am I gonna be baking under the sun all day? I don’t know that idea. Julie Haider 4:52 No you need to go to the mountains. Brandi Sea 4:55 It depends. Is a cactus really exciting? Not really. So I I’ll pass. So yeah, that sounds fun hiking in the winter. I don’t think I’ve ever really given that a try because then it’s like the sun feels nice because it’s like, just cold outside. Julie Haider 5:10 Yeah, you’re like, Oh, good. The sun is out. Let’s get warmed up. Way better. Yeah. So I don’t know how people do it in the summer. It’s not I get cranky. Brandi Sea 5:21 Yeah. Yeah. I don’t like the sun. Sorry, son. I just like the clouds. So, yeah, anyway, yeah, that sounds awesome. Julie Haider 5:29 Yeah, yeah, I’m excited. Um, what have you been inspired by this week? Brandi Sea 5:36 Wanderlust is real. And so I’ve been, I mean, I always do look through my past photos, because I have so many like, I could share five photos a day of things that I found on my trips that are inspiring to me, but I just don’t have time for that. But I’ve been looking through my photos for content and things. And I found, I found two photos of like the same kind of thing that I got in different places. So the first place I ever had a cronut was in San Francisco. And then I had another one in Nashville last summer. And I was looking at this picture. And I was thinking, like, Who? Whose idea was this? Like, you know, people always say there’s nothing new under the sun. And so I was thinking about that, and thinking how discouraging that can be like, yeah, where you can sit around and think like, I, I just want to do something new and interesting. But someone’s probably already done it. And that idea can like really, really debilitate people, but also me because it’s like, well, if somebody has already done a book on colour, like, why should I do one? Yeah, or any number of things. And I think that we forget that it doesn’t need to be new. That, well, maybe the cronut was new. But the donut and the croissant weren’t new. Yeah. And so you had to understand and know those things in order to like, combine them together. And so thinking about the idea that maybe you can use something that already exists in a new way, or maybe, maybe just like opening up your, your mindset, to the idea that new isn’t the point, like it doesn’t matter if it’s new, but the process of ideating does matter. And that you might actually come up with something innovative. I didn’t invent the wordmap, like, by far like that has been around for ages. There’s no way of ideating and brainstorming. But the process that I use, that I use the mindmap as a foundation for is something I’ve never seen anybody do. It’s something that is unique to use it as like the map, the guide for your designs, as opposed to just here’s a way to like, come up with a bunch of random ideas is unique. So I could have sat back and been like, you know what, everybody knows what a wordmap is. And nobody’s gonna care that I use it differently. So the cronut was just like, you know what, I should stop caring, like about a new idea. And just remember that, like, it’s how I use something that maybe exists differently, because I have a unique perspective. And I haven’t, yeah, and encouraging other people that the point is not new, the point might just be better, yet different. And that’s definitely way more empowering. So that’s what’s been inspiring me. So I hopefully I’ll post a point a picture of the chrome nets because they are ridiculously hard to eat. Julie Haider 8:45 I’ve never had one, but I would like to. Brandi Sea 8:48 Yes, you need to. So you’re going to San Francisco, not San Francisco. You were planning on going to San Diego I would venture to get there’s a quote up there. So okay, yeah, add that to your research. That was money, fame and fortune by Goo Goo Dolls. I chose this thing this week. Because well, I love to do the dolls always forever. But I also love the emphasis on sort of finding someone who has something you might not have and being drawn to that. I think that whether it’s in a romantic relationship or honestly, in a professional environment, surrounding yourself with people that sort of fill gaps, maybe that you don’t have is super important. I love knowing that I have people in my life, especially my husband who are opposite of me or complimentary to me in a lot of ways, and have maybe the skills and insight that I don’t have. It’s really a treasure to to find those people. There’s there’s a fire that they they have maybe that you don’t have, something that they’re passionate about that you wish you could learn or something that they could teach you. So this song was really, really about the fortune and the treasure being in people. That’s kind of what I got about out of it. Do you like the Goo Goo Dolls, Julie? Or is this like Disney? Julie Haider 11:16 No, I just haven’t listened too much by them. So I don’t have an answer for that. I’m sorry. Brandi Sea 11:23 It’s okay. I forgive you. I still love you. So let’s talk about clients and talking to clients and not talking well to clients. Yeah, I think that I would say the first thing you need to remember when going into a client conversation, whether it’s the first time or anytime the client is not the enemy, just because they don’t know what you do. So let’s just start there. Julie Haider 11:58 Yeah, definitely. Brandi Sea 12:02 I have I developed over the summer, a PDF, like a five or six page PDF with some thoughts on this. And it’s basically 10 questions you need to ask your client before you start designing. And so I think something that we forget as, as the designer is that just because a client is the one paying us doesn’t mean that they need to be in control of the conversation. And honestly, they’re coming to us to solve a problem. And even for you like even as a photographer, and especially an adventure, elopement, photographer, all the work that you do, they are coming to you with a general idea of what they want. And then it’s your job to communicate with them to ask the right questions, to make sure that, then you can do your job, right. I mean… Julie Haider 12:56 Yeah, it also feels different when you do that. For instance, like in my business, I do ask. So I ask clients a bunch of questions about themselves and the kinds of things they like to do. And I even ask, like, what their love languages are, and all kinds of stuff like that, that helps me get a get a clear picture of them and the kind of illuma day that they would want. When I don’t get those answers back or for whatever reason, like I don’t have a clear picture, I start throwing out ideas, and it feels it does not feel great to throw out ideas that you think are super fun, and you would totally be down for. And they’re like, no, we’re not really interested in that. And then I’m like, Well, I was my list of ideas. Now, what do I do or not? And it also just feels weird that like, they’re like, not interested in that. And I’m like…. Brandi Sea 13:51 You’re like that’s what I do! Julie Haider 13:53 Yeah, I’m like, are they just boring? Does like…. Brandi Sea 13:58 Don’t they know how to have fun? Julie Haider 14:00 Yeah. Or like did did they think my ideas were stupid? Do they think it was silly that I suggested that? And so it starts to like, bring in all kinds of feelings that you don’t want to have, like, you don’t want to sour the relationship with that and on there. And they might be thinking like, man, she promised that she’d help us like, make our dream day and none of these are really hitting the spot. And they might start to doubt me. So like, on both ends of the relationship that’s starting to like, bring up some things that really don’t need to be there. If you had, like, started off with asking the right questions and taking those answers and like, yeah, dealing with it correctly. Brandi Sea 14:40 Yeah, it’s, it seems, it seems counterintuitive, and I recently encountered a designer who said something to the effect of you know, sometimes you just need to just do whatever the client asks, so if they come to you and say that they want a unicorn with, like a rainbow unicorn with flames, you know, coming out of the backside, for their logo, like, sometimes you just do it and you do whatever they want. And I was just like, but what if that’s not what they need? Like, what if that’s actually not what they want? They just thought it was a fun idea at the time. Yeah. So communicating clearly with your clients is always asking questions and not just taking orders. Not just, you know, I don’t know how you would feel if like a a couple came up, like came over to you, in person or over email or whatever, and was just like, we really love to hike. And we have a perfect spot. And we already have, like, the dress and we have, you know, a minister, and we have all of the things that we need. Can you just show up? Julie Haider 16:02 Yeah, I would feel under utilised. Brandi Sea 16:06 Yeah. Is that? What, like? Is that what you want? Like, do you realize what you’re paying me just do that? Julie Haider 16:13 Yeah. And especially if they’re being really specific, like, you know, if they’re telling me which shots to get, we’re telling you as a designer, like, I want this section to be this colour, and that, you know, like being super specific. You’re like, why am I here? Brandi Sea 16:28 Yeah, why did you even talk to me? So obviously, this is like a little self promo. But like, if you want that PDF, it’s free. If you sign up for my, my, I won’t call it a newsletter, my emails or whatever. I do a new offer every quarter. So if that if you if you find that by the time you hear this episode, it’s gone just messaged me. And I’ll be happy to, to send that to you. But the the questions you’re asking are probably the first key to communicating clearly, because that’ll also, you can also ask questions like, why did you choose me? And yeah, then if they say, I don’t know, because you were the first person that I saw. They’re probably not the right person for you. Julie Haider 17:15 Yeah. It kind of helps you gauge like where they’re at? Brandi Sea 17:19 Yeah, absolutely. in every possible way. So what do you think about setting expectations? Julie Haider 17:26 Yeah, I think that’s something that especially as creatives, we tend to, not put a lot of emphasis on that. And that creates problems down the road. So V and right off the bat, be very clear what the process is going to be like, and hopefully, so we talked last episode about, about in your, when you’re talking about the work that you do, and you’re presenting your business, that you’re being clear, this is what I do. And here are the steps we’re going to take to like, get to this end goal, to fix your problems. So hopefully, they should already have like, a fairly clear idea of that, but you want to like make it even more clear, and just really set it out, step by step so that there’s no confusion and also so like, it’s kind of an accountability thing too. Like, they’re never wondering if you’re doing what he said you would do, or if like things are moving along. And it’s all just right there. So when you’re working with a client, do you ever set out dates that you’re going to give the client certain things? Like, you’re gonna present them with an idea? Or you’re gonna send them the files or whatever? And then do you also have dates for them like that they need to reply by? Brandi Sea 18:47 So yes, and no, it really depends on the project. So speaking of expectations, like the first thing that I do, once I’ve had a chance to, like, either have a strategy session or just do a client brief, like a brief about the project, is I put together a proposal. And part of that proposal is a page that explains like, basically, here’s what I do. So I’ve talked before about how I developed my process was through putting this exact thing together, figuring out how I can show my value was showing what I do, so that they don’t think I just show up and push a magic design button. Right? So that’s part of the proposal is showing them like okay, so when it’s when you don’t hear from me, because there will be a portion of time where I don’t have anything to talk to you about, trust me that I’m doing something and it’s probably one of these things. Another page is what I provide as far as like, part of say, part of like the brand identity package, and the brand strategy. It’s like a bullet list of here’s what I here’s like the strategy I provide. Here’s some of the answers. I will help you discover. Here’s why. literally like the deliverables like stationery or letterhead or a website, header, whatever the whatever I’m designing, so then the expectations are set on that. So by the time I get down to like the prices and things like that page, there are, like time, they’re, they’re sort of like flexible time limits on how much each of those steps, like where we will be at each of those steps. So yeah, if they sign a contract today, I usually tell them like, a week from now or whatever, depending on how busy I am, you’ll have like, some concepts and directions that we can talk about. And then at that point, depending on what the feedback is there, and that’s where feedback and communication comes in, is the continued conversation of going, okay, while we’re here now, and based on your feedback, and how you’d like to move forward, here’s what I see, the next time deadline is being. So there’s always, there’s always two concrete dates that I set at the very beginning. And one is when you can expect something from me just to start this process. So the concepting direction, and then the end date. So depending on a question that I always ask, that’s part of these questions in the PDF is, is your deadline fixed or flexible? So that’s important, they say flexible? Then I asked for a range like when like, do you need it? Is it like, two days flexible? Or is it like 2 weeks flexible? I’ve had clients that are like, you know what, this is more of like a passion thing. And I’m still writing songs. And so anytime in the next three months, for this to be finished, as long as like we’re working on it together, so that I have a clear picture, and I can plan my time. So I never set like solid, absolute deadlines, until I’ve finished one step. Because it depends on that communication for me with the client at each step to see like, how it’s going. And you know, what, we’re what we’re approaching next in the list. Does that make sense? Julie Haider 22:04 Yeah, yeah. Um, when you start to work with a client, or before you start to work with the client, do you ask them specifically what their budget is? Brandi Sea 22:13 That is something that I do not do. So I have found and learned that for what I do. When I start the conversation with money. It begins to be all about the money as opposed to the value and the experience that I provide. So there are some instances like, especially if I’m like working with family, which normally I do full price or free. Like, that’s usually what I do, you can either pay me or, like, just let me give this to you, because I love you. But when I when you ask somebody, like how much are you willing to pay for this? It just becomes gross. I feel like yeah, as opposed to like, which is why I do the brief, and the and the questions and all of the question asking. And then I put together a price based on what they need, and turn that over to them because then it’s like, okay, and the price always comes second to last. Last last is the contract, the legally stuff, right. The second to last page that they will see is the price. And that details, everything they’re getting that I already explained. So by the time they get to the prices, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s not too bad. Because you do a lot. As opposed to starting up here with the price. It’s like $5,000 for a branding package. No, I can just go on Fiverr and get a logo and then they don’t care how much you do. They don’t care what work you put into it. Because they are already like sticker shocked. Julie Haider 23:48 Yeah. And once you’ve started to list out and I think that’s something that is important in the communication is like, don’t just say like a branding package. And the end result is you get this, this and this. And it’s 500 or $5,000. Really like showcasing all the work and the expertise that you’re putting in there, list it all out so that they’re looking at a giant wall of text. Brandi Sea 24:13 Yeah. So that easy to understand, too. Because you also don’t want to feel like a lawyer where it’s like, no offence to lawyers out there, but where you’re just like, oh, there’s a lot of stuff on here. I don’t understand. That’s why you’re expensive because you understand this and I don’t it’s like, that’s not communicating either. Julie Haider 24:32 They need to know what they’re getting and see the full value of it. But if they don’t know what it is, they don’t know the value of it. So yeah, I think that is really important. I’m the same way like I I don’t like to ask about price. And I don’t even share my full price list. You know, with someone who’s inquired until after we’ve had a you know, I have like three or four paragraphs that are about all the great things that we’re gonna plan to do at home and help them and all that and then I’m like, And here my prices. Because yeah, I don’t want to start the conversation off with that. It’s just not where I want the emphasis to be. Brandi Sea 25:08 Yeah. And I mean, I think that as creative professionals, and sometimes just as business people we forget. Have you have you ever seen, so I follow a comedian. His name, jeez, John Crist on Instagram. And he, he sometimes will, like, do these little skits that show if Instagram was real life, or if Facebook was real life. And like, you know, someone says, Oh, my gosh, look at my baby. Isn’t she pretty? And you just go. Like, it’s like, that’s weird. Creepy. That’s sort of strange. And so if you, I think we have to like, step back and think about how we tackle these kinds of things in real life. It’s like, if I’m having a garage sale, I don’t stand on the corner and go. I have a garage sale. I have things for $5. Okay, what do you have? Right? What do you have for sale? Like? Sure, I might want that. But I don’t know what you have. Julie Haider 26:14 I have not like have $5 to spend today. What should I spend it on? Hey, somebody got something for $5? I gotta go check that out. Brandi Sea 26:20 Yeah. Oh, and it’s $5. So even I don’t know what it is. But it’s $5. So I’ll just buy it. So it’s like, think through like, how you’re how you’re approaching people. When someone comes to you and says, You know, I have I have a need for something. And I think that you do what I need. And and you go, Well, how much are you willing to pay? That just, it feels gross. It’s like the guy on the corner like selling watches in his jacket. Like, I got something for you, but how much money you got? And it’s so sleazeball. It just yeah. Julie Haider 26:59 And that also is like, Oh, well, are you gonna charge me more than you’re gonna charge someone else? Brandi Sea 27:04 Exactly, exactly. And so the way that I think we both do pricing, to some extent is I do value based pricing. So yes, I have sort of like a base that I start from mentally because I know how much certain things are going to cost timewise for me, but then you build in value on top of that, to how much this is worth for this client. If If Nike called me up tomorrow and asked me to design or to do like some brand strategy and process thinking with their team, you better believe I’m not going to charge them the same amount of money as I would like the church where my husband goes, I mean, works like not because I’m trying to gouge them. But because I know what they will do with that information is going to make them lots and lots and lots of money. And that is something that only I provide. And that’s where you can’t start with the pricing and start with their budget. Because, it’s going to be different for everybody. And you still sort of achieve the same end goal of charging less for smaller clients, because the value is different for them than it is for bigger ones. So the pricing conversation is something that you have got to be clear on with clients. And it is so important. And we did talk with, we did talk a lot about that with Natalie, a couple episodes ago. But just to reiterate, like, when you begin these conversations, don’t start them talking about money, like, talk about their problems, talk about how you can help them, talk about what you do. And when you set the expectations of what you do that helps, but how do you go about helping them set their own expectations for like, what they what they even think they want or like what they want? Julie Haider 28:56 Yeah, I start out with a phone call, just to like, hear what they’re thinking and to throw out ideas to them. And I like to hear that feedback of that you’re not going to get through an email. Brandi Sea 29:07 Like an awkward pause that says, I don’t know what to think about that. Julie Haider 29:10 Yeah. They’re like, well, I never thought of that. That sounds super cool. And they’re like really excited about it. So I think just having like a real conversation, voice to voice helps you gauge like where they’re at and what they’re thinking or if there’s like a lot of hesitation and they’re feeling super unsure about what they want to do, then I know like, okay, we’re really gonna have to dig into narrowing down ideas until they feel more comfortable and then we can start setting plans or whatever. So I think that initial conversation, for me at least is really important to have verbally instead of just over email, because you always get more information and then you get the the extra little cues from the way they’re saying things. So yeah. Brandi Sea 29:58 I miss I miss in person meetings, too. I didn’t I don’t do a lot of phone calls. And honestly, since I’ve been doing more strategy and less just like, fill out this creative brief, I’ll send you a proposal and we’ll work together. Because I can tend to be a little more introverted when it comes to talking to people over the phone. It feels, I always feel like what if I forget something, and if I have it in an email, I can go look it up. Right? Realizing lately that you are so right that like, there’s just stuff that you can’t get, which is another part of this journey I’ve been on doing more strategy is by sitting like this over zoom with somebody for 30 minutes and talking about what they might need. I get way more that I can then add to that proposal than I ever would have with just like, here’s homework, here’s a bunch of questions to answer to send back to me. Julie Haider 30:53 Yeah. And they also hear your voice and your excitement level. And like, it’s just your compassion way more. Yeah. And that’s gonna get them more excited. And yeah, phone calls are scary, but I think they’re really worth it in certain situations. So absolutely. That’s how I like to start. Brandi Sea 31:10 And I think with that, we’ve covered a lot. Yeah. Client relationships are important. They don’t have to be difficult. They’re, they’re not your enemy. Like No, don’t don’t think about like, you are, you are the the sad guy who’s just being like whipped into doing work like they want, they want your service, they want to pay you to do it. And if you’re communicating clearly, like it could be a really great relationship, it could be a really awesome experience. And if you think about all the things that we talked about, and even implement just a few like you will see a dramatic shift in the kinds of clients you get and even how relationships with clients you already have, like might be better. Again, that was the Goo Goo Dolls with Money, Fame and Fortune. You can find this song and lots of other inspiring music on our Spotify playlist. Just search music from design speaks. All right, everybody, that’s our episode for today. If you enjoy this show and want to support us, become one of our exclusive patrons over at patreon.com/designspeaks, where you’ll have access to some extended episodes and fun bonus content. Design speaks is produced by Kenneth kniffin and Dakota cook audio production by the podcast babes. Thanks to Colin from vespertine for our theme music, you can find vespertine on Apple Music and Spotify. Design speaks is a project of Brandi Sea Design. It is recorded and produced in the shadow of the watermelon peak Sandia mountains near Albuquerque New Mexico. You can leave us a note on Instagram @designspeakspodcast and you can find all current and past episodes at designspeakspodcast.com thanks again for listening. Until next time.