This week Michelle and Brandi talk about whether you’re born with an eye for quality [design] and how to cultivate that, especially in the book design space.

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Michelle’s week:

Michelle had the week off this week so she relaxed and enjoyed it. She got her daughter registered for kindergarten. And since her daughter is starting kindergarten she and her husband took the opportunity to get their second car fixed. Which on today’s episode Brandi and Michelle name! Other than that Michelle went to the thrift store and found some fun stuff. She also got some new glasses which is also really exciting. 

Brandi’s week:

Brandi dyed her hair this week and it looks great! She also finished season 4 of Veronica Mars and Brandi, the non-crier, bawled her eyes out. And then it was Brandi’s birthday! 38 years young! To celebrate, the design speak ladies (Michelle and Joelle) took Brandi to the Grove. If you are ever on the Albuquerque area make sure to stop there. We also got to surprise Brandi with a pair of boots that she’s been wanting! 

Takeaways from this episode:

• A bad design can undermine how good the content is.
• If you want a better eye for design and art you have to practice.
• People choose things that are better designed.
• You won’t do your content justice if you don’t invest in good illustrations/design. It’s okay to wait until you can afford it.
• Show both sides of the spectrum. Good design vs. bad design
• Be willing to put the hard work in
• You get a return on your investment when you invest in good design

Brandi’s song: Why Did You Run by Judah and the Lion

TRANSCRIPTION:

Brandi Sea: 00:01 Well, I, once I knew it was happening, I like my eyes.

Michelle: 00:03 Did you pause? Pause the TV when that happens? I just knew it was going to happen and as soon as I knew who it was I I like lost it. And Kenny sitting next to me, he was sitting on the opposite side of the couch. He likes, scoots over and like puts his arm around me and I like stark like bawling, you know like [inaudible].

Speaker 2: 00:22 Welcome to Design Speaks. This lovely podcast is brought to you by graphic design geek and a regular human being. AKA a non-designer. We’re here to chat about music, pop culture, cool places and basically whatever we feel is relevant.

Brandi Sea: 00:39 Hey, I’m Brandi Sea.

Michelle: 00:40 And I’m Michelle.

Brandi Sea: 00:41 And you’re listening to episode 112 of Design Speaks.

Michelle: 00:44 On today’s episode we’re going to be talking about nurture or nature. Are you born with an eye for good design or not?

Brandi Sea: 00:53 If you love this show and want to support it so we can keep making more episodes, get to our Patreon.

Michelle: 01:00 It’s https://www.patreon.com/designspeaks and you can give as little as $1 or as much as $50. You can give monthly, you can give one time, whatever you want.

Brandi Sea: 01:09 We can do this without you.

Michelle: 01:11 We can do this without you. So go https://www.patreon.com/designspeaks.

Brandi Sea: 01:12 So tell me about your week.

Michelle: 01:18 My week was kinda nice. Um, I had the week off of work, so I just kind of did whatever I wanted. We um, did some school stuff. Got My daughter registered for kindergarten. We were supposed to have a meet the teacher this week, but the kindergarten building had a water line break and so that has been postponed until next Tuesday. Just before school starts.

Brandi Sea: 01:45 It could be worse. It could be asbestos in the roof.

Michelle: 01:47 I know. I’d rather it be water.

Brandi Sea: 01:50 I mean, then there’s mold so maybe not.

Michelle: 01:52 Um, then. I know.

Brandi Sea: 01:53 Don’t panic.

Michelle: 01:54 It’s fine. It’s fine. She’s going to be fine. Um, she then we got our because she started in kindergarten, we put our car that we’ve had for like over a year in the shop now and got it up and running, which was nice. And now we have two cars again, live in the American dream.

Brandi Sea: 02:12 And what do you name your cars?

Michelle: 02:14 I haven’t named this one. I was telling, we didn’t name the, we didn’t name our other car. DJ randomly was like this car, his name is Bertha,

Brandi Sea: 02:23 The white one.

Michelle: 02:24 The white one. I was like, yes it is.

Brandi Sea: 02:26 That car doesn’t look like a Bertha.

Michelle: 02:27 Oh, it’s a Bertha. She’s, she

Brandi Sea: 02:29 She is not, she is not large.

Michelle: 02:31 The thing is she looks larger than she is and she does, she packs zero punch like.

Brandi Sea: 02:38 See, cause now I can’t write that book that there are no skinny girls named Bertha.

Michelle: 02:42 No, she’s.

Brandi Sea: 02:42 If your skinny car named Bertha.

Michelle: 02:44 This, this is not a skinny car to me.

Brandi Sea: 02:45 No offense. This is all a joke guys. It’s all a joke.

Michelle: 02:48 It’s an, it’s a name thing. It’s funny. Don’t worry about it. Um, so we haven’t named the yellow car just yet. Maybe I gotta think of like some slick, it’s my magic school bus. I don’t know. It’s like a school bus yellow.

Brandi Sea: 03:01 Miss Frizzle?

Michelle: 03:01 Yeah Miss Frizzle! Awe! Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 03:04 Cars named miss Frizzle.

Michelle: 03:05 And she acts like it. Let me tell you.

Brandi Sea: 03:10 Little spazzy.

Michelle: 03:10 Little spazzy. Does whatever she wants.

Brandi Sea: 03:12 Not always reliable.

Michelle: 03:12 Not the most reliable.

Brandi Sea: 03:14 I don’t know. Miss Frizzles pretty reliable. She shows up when she wants.

Michelle: 03:16 She shows up when she wants. The kids never die. But they really should have with all of the adventures that they went on.

Brandi Sea: 03:23 I mean, you know.

Michelle: 03:25 I know.

Brandi Sea: 03:26 Miss frizzle would be the best name for a car.

Michelle: 03:28 Yeah, I think that might be the name. Did we just name my car?

Brandi Sea: 03:30 We just named it.

Brandi Sea: 03:31 I like it. Miss Frizzle is the car.

Brandi Sea: 03:34 Kaden used to call it Bumblebee.

Michelle: 03:34 Which I mean, I feel like it’s got to have a few more things to it. Like maybe when Kenny was driving it, Bumblebee was appropriate, but I think most cars are girls, so or feminine anyway.

Brandi Sea: 03:49 Oh no for sure.

Michelle: 03:49 So, um.

Brandi Sea: 03:50 I had, I had a conversation with Kenny the other day about how come girls don’t usually name their cars and when we do, why do we not name them boy names?

Michelle: 03:59 Ooh, it’s interesting. I don’t know.

Brandi Sea: 04:01 Mind blown?

Michelle: 04:02 Mind blown. I like,

Brandi Sea: 04:04 These are the things I think about.

Michelle: 04:05 And like my meanwhile, at the time, my four-year-old daughter’s naming our car Bertha, we’re driving off of the parking lot, like the lot that it was on. And she’s like, I think this car’s name is Bertha.

Brandi Sea: 04:16 It spoke to me.

Michelle: 04:17 Did, it’s like literally, I was like, did it speak to you? How did, how was this car named Bertha?

Brandi Sea: 04:23 There’s actually like unfinished business with this car and there’s like, it ghost that lives in there. She’s.

Michelle: 04:27 The ghost of Bertha lives in there.

Brandi Sea: 04:29 Their unfinished business was she was never named.

Michelle: 04:32 Yeah. Oh, poor thing, poor thing. Um, and then other than that, we’ve been, I’ve been hanging out, I went to the thrift store and found some fun thrift store finds.

Brandi Sea: 04:41 Ooo! Like what?

Michelle: 04:42 Um, so w like randomly we found a little chair for DJ to have like put her with her dolls in, which is a fun thing for her. Um.

Brandi Sea: 04:51 Like a, like a high chair, like a doll high chair, like a salon chair, like a salon chair. So they can get fixed up and they go to the salon now.

Michelle: 04:59 That was like $2, whatever. I let her get it and she really does play with it actually.

Brandi Sea: 05:04 That’s what she was telling me about today.

Michelle: 05:05 Yeah, yeah.

Brandi Sea: 05:05 She’s like, I got a chair for my dog. And I was like

Michelle: 05:07 What is that? Why?

Brandi Sea: 05:09 Okay.

Michelle: 05:09 Um, I just found some like some good curtains for the guest bedroom and a cute little lamp for the bit guest bedroom, which is needed. And I went out looking for, um, a bookshelf for DJ’s room because she has so many books now and they’re overtaking like.

Brandi Sea: 05:26 Always a problem I’m okay with.

Michelle: 05:27 Yeah. So it’s great, but I now need places to put them that aren’t just like stuck everywhere. So I was looking for a bookshelf, but I didn’t want like a, you know like all this was at Walmart. Now it’s a goodwill type of bookshelf and so, and I didn’t find any like I couldn’t find any. And then I was at goodwill, which is not my first place to go for thrift store, but I was there and they brought out like carts of things that they hadn’t put away yet. And I found this like cool, like three-tiered wood thing that was like handmade and it like, it’s like the bottom shelf was really long. The second shelf was a little bit shorter and the third shelf was a little bit shorter.

Brandi Sea: 06:08 Oh, like a little pyramid shape?

Michelle: 06:09 Yeah. But I mean it’s like the one side is like.

Brandi Sea: 06:12 Oh, like steps.

Michelle: 06:13 Yeah. So it looked like steps and I don’t know if it’s supposed to be a bookshelf, but I bought it for $5 and now it’s a bookshelf.

Brandi Sea: 06:20 Do we need to like refinish it and paint it? Or do something cool to it?

Michelle: 06:23 No, I love it. I love it.

Brandi Sea: 06:25 Oh, okay.

Michelle: 06:25 The way the as-is, it’s like a dark, it has a finish on it. It’s like a dark stain.

Brandi Sea: 06:30 Nice.

Michelle: 06:30 And it’s super cute and so.

Brandi Sea: 06:32 Wow, good job.

Michelle: 06:33 And I’m really impressed with it. I was like, oh, just a little bit of time extra at the thrift store and I’m good. I also found like a, you know those cool like, um, they’re, they’re like lemonade glasses that you like have the popular, the top on them. They say lemonade on them. They’re glass and they have the top on them that like suctions on. You know what I’m talking about?

Brandi Sea: 06:53 I have no idea what you’re talking about. A lemonade class?

Michelle: 06:56 Well they say lemonade on them. Usually.

Brandi Sea: 06:58 Like a Mason Jar?

Michelle: 06:58 Yeah. But it’s like, it’s like a bottle. Sorry, it’s a bottle. Not a glass

Brandi Sea: 07:01 Oh yes, yes, yes.

Michelle: 07:03 So I found one of those.

Brandi Sea: 07:04 For like serving water.

Michelle: 07:05 Yes. And I put sparkling water in it.

Brandi Sea: 07:08 Yeah!

Michelle: 07:08 So those are my.

Brandi Sea: 07:09 And you got new glasses.

Michelle: 07:11 Oh, my glasses are the, I’m adjusting because they’re.

Brandi Sea: 07:14 You need to post a story or a selfie or something because otherwise, people don’t know what we’re talking about.

Michelle: 07:18 I got new glasses and they’re from Warby Parker, which is a great.

Brandi Sea: 07:21 They’re like a blush, see-through acrylic and they’re adorable.

Michelle: 07:26 Um, I’m getting used to them every time I put them on my eyes go a little cross side because my prescription is new.

Brandi Sea: 07:32 Yeah, mine were like that too.

Michelle: 07:33 And I, I don’t know what it is with glasses, but if I wear them for too long like I love how these glasses look. I hate how they make me feel, but I hate how glasses make me feel overall cause they squeezed my head too much, even if they’ve been sized and so.

Brandi Sea: 07:48 You don’t have a large head.

Michelle: 07:49 I know. I just, I think maybe there’s this part of my ears that just can’t take it. And so I do a lot. My eyes get tired by the end of the day and when I wear glasses, but they don’t do that with contacts.

Brandi Sea: 08:00 I’m supposed to wear mine all the time. Am I wearing them now?

Michelle: 08:02 Nope.

Brandi Sea: 08:02 Nope.

Michelle: 08:03 I usually wear contacts throughout the day and glasses in the evening. But today I just wanted, they went well with the look that I have going on, so I wore them all day.

Brandi Sea: 08:11 They’re super cute.

Michelle: 08:12 Thanks.

Brandi Sea: 08:12 And Kelly has like the man version of them, but they’re clear.

Michelle: 08:15 They’re clear.

Brandi Sea: 08:16 Instead of blush clear.

Michelle: 08:17 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 08:17 And you guys are adorable.

Michelle: 08:18 It’s, we always have glasses that look similar, which make people wonder if we’re related, but it’s fine. It’s fine. Like, oh, are you guys cousins, brother, and sister? No

Brandi Sea: 08:28 Yeah, cause we live in that kind of place where that’s okay.

Michelle: 08:30 Married.

Brandi Sea: 08:30 No.

Michelle: 08:32 Married. Um, but yeah, so that’s my week. It’s been good. It’s been fun. How about your week?

Brandi Sea: 08:39 Um, let’s see. I dyed, my hair.

Michelle: 08:42 Which looks really good.

Brandi Sea: 08:43 So I don’t, I dunno how many of you follow me on Instagram, but for like in December my hairstylist did this thing called oil slick and I probably talked about it where it was like CMYK hair, which was like my dream.

Michelle: 08:54 So cool.

Brandi Sea: 08:55 Um, and it’s faded out. So I’ve got, I had like this strange gradient of like super blonde to like my dark, dark hair. And it was just feeling real gross cause you, you know, when you die or bleach at your hair, it feels all, what’s that like.

Michelle: 09:12 For frazzled frizzle Ms. Frizzle.

Brandi Sea: 09:15 Hay. It feels like, hay.

Michelle: 09:16 Oh yeah, yeah. Straw.

Brandi Sea: 09:18 Yeah, there you go. That’s the one straw and hay. Are they different?

Michelle: 09:21 I don’t, I don’t think so.

Brandi Sea: 09:23 Okay. Whatever. Anyways, it looks and feels like straw so I, I was really wanting to do something like more fun to it, but also because we’re planning our vow renewal, I’m planning on doing something really like legit nice.

Michelle: 09:37 Oh yeah. Not Extravagant.

Brandi Sea: 09:38 No. Like I want to do like a bronze, some sort of bronze thing, but in order to do that, I can’t do something permanent now. So, um, I asked my hair stylist if she would kill me if I did something and she said, not if you do semi-permanent.

Michelle: 09:51 There you go.

Brandi Sea: 09:51 So I went to Sally’s and was looking through all the options and found this one that was really cool. It’s called good dye young, DYE young. And um was researching online while I was there and turns out Haley Williams from Paramore who was like my Fav, it’s her company.

Michelle: 10:09 It’s awesome.

Brandi Sea: 10:10 Um, it’s like meant to me, it’s made with like Vegan materials and it has essential oils, so it smells great. And like my hair didn’t feel super gross after like, it actually felt like nourished and nice. So it’s this color called Narwhal, which is like a teal and it’s really fun.

Michelle: 10:24 Love it.

Brandi Sea: 10:24 Really bright. Um, so I did that. Um, uh, I finished Veronica Mars season four. Wow.

Brandi Sea: 10:31 I will, I don’t know.

Brandi Sea: 10:33 I guess you’re probably never going to watch it. Are you gonna watch it?

Michelle: 10:36 I might watch it, but you can’t spoil anything for me because I won’t remember what you say.

Brandi Sea: 10:41 You might remember this.

Michelle: 10:42 I don’t think I will.

Brandi Sea: 10:44 Okay. Um, somebody dies that’s really, really important. And I bawled.

Michelle: 10:51 That’s how I was with Downton Abbey.

Brandi Sea: 10:52 The non, non-crier over here cause like I was like, I knew it was like once I knew it was happening, I like my eyes weld up.

Michelle: 10:59 Did you pause? I pause the TV when it happens to me.

Brandi Sea: 11:01 I didn’t. I just knew it was going to happen. And um, because I knew something crazy was going to happen at the last episode and I had been seeing tweets that were alluding to the fact that someone important dies, but they weren’t saying who. And so I was like, okay, is it her dad? Is it, this is or that? And so then it was, as soon as I knew who it was, I, I like lost it. And Kenny sitting next to me, he was sitting on the opposite side of the couch and like scoots over and like puts his arm around me and I like start like bawling. And I’m like, I’m so sorry. I’m just so sad right now. And he was like, it’s okay.

Michelle: 11:34 And that’s something like, okay, so I cry for everything. Um, but with those, with TV shows, not even those types of shows, TV shows in general, when I cry, I’m embarrassed that I cry because I don’t feel like I should be crying because I was not real.

Brandi Sea: 11:49 That was it and it, but it was also like I’ve, I’ve been in these people for like 15 years.

Michelle: 11:55 They’re apart of your life.

Brandi Sea: 11:56 And I’m just all, I guess I’ll just say, if you haven’t watched it by now, I’m sorry. You’re just going to be just say, so. Veronica’s on again off again boyfriend Logan, they finally get together and they’ve been now by the time this new season.

Michelle: 12:11 Finally, that’s how you,

Brandi Sea: 12:12 They’re like, they got ma, he asked her to marry him and all through the season she’s like, I can’t marry you. Like we can’t get married. Like people that get married just get divorced. Like, I can’t get married. And he’s like, well I love you. Like I’m here. But you know, if you know, it’s like this whole thing. And he has completely changed. Like he used to be such alike.

Michelle: 12:29 A jerk.

Brandi Sea: 12:29 A d bag and like he completely turned around and is like this amazing person. He’s like in therapy and he’s doing so good.

Michelle: 12:35 That’s how you know, what’s going to happen.

Brandi Sea: 12:37 And then he liked dies in the most terrible way and I’m just like, I couldn’t stop crying. Like,

Michelle: 12:42 Cause that’s like her love.

Brandi Sea: 12:43 I honestly like couldn’t even sleep until like 1:00 AM because I was on stupid Twitter, like looking at all the angry people that were mad that he died. They’re like ready to boycott the show because they’re like, you can’t kill Logan. You can’t kill Logan.

Michelle: 12:55 But you saw him die. He’s gone.

Brandi Sea: 12:58 You don’t,

Michelle: 12:59 Oh, then he’s not gone. That’s the rule of film.

Brandi Sea: 13:00 But the writer is like, he’s gone. And even the guy that plays him Jason Duhring, went on Twitter and made a video and was like, I’m so sorry you guys are upset. Like I’m dead.

Michelle: 13:12 Yeah, I am gone.

Brandi Sea: 13:13 But there’s like a petition, there’s over 500,000 people that I like, like bringing Logan back. Hashtag bring Logan back. So,

Michelle: 13:20 Which is so funny because, in Gilmore Girls, I am not team Logan who’s a boyfriend, team Jesse forever.

Brandi Sea: 13:29 I’m team Logan. I’m team Logan. But.

Michelle: 13:31 That upsets me to hear, even though you’re in the context of Veronica Mars and not Gilmore Girls.

Brandi Sea: 13:34 I’m so, I’m so upset. I was, I’m just like still reeling about it. So anyway, so that was traumatizing. Um, and then it was my birthday.

Michelle: 13:44 Yay!

Brandi Sea: 13:44 I’m 38 years young.

Michelle: 13:45 Yes.

Brandi Sea: 13:46 Um, I told somebody yesterday that had a meeting with, um, it was actually a potential client and they were like, well how, cause I told them with my birthday, well how old are you? Like, like 27? I was like.

Michelle: 13:54 You’re like, thank you.

Brandi Sea: 13:54 I just kinda laughed. And, and the girl that was there was like, like 24? And I was like, I’m 38. And they were both like, what in the world? Are you kidding? Um, so that was pretty great. So it feels good to still feel young.

Michelle: 14:10 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 14:11 Anyway, age is just a number.

Michelle: 14:13 Age is just a number.

Brandi Sea: 14:14 But today you and Joelle took me to the Grove. So if you’re ever in Albuquerque, the Grove is the place you got to get the Grove Salad. It’s my favorite thing.

Michelle: 14:21 The Grove is a place that I would recommend to anybody traveling through and I am very picky about where I tell people to go because people are like, I’m in New Mexico, what should I eat? And I’m like, please don’t eat at any Mexican restaurants.

Brandi Sea: 14:34 Well there are some.

Michelle: 14:35 Not that there’s any.

Brandi Sea: 14:36 El Patron.

Michelle: 14:36 Not that they’re bad. The thing is I just don’t want that to be like.

Brandi Sea: 14:40 But if they’ve never had it, they have to.

Michelle: 14:42 Stresses me out.

Brandi Sea: 14:43 They have to.

Michelle: 14:43 I don’t want to, I just don’t want them to.

Brandi Sea: 14:45 I do. I want them both. So usually the Grove.

Michelle: 14:48 Go to someone’s house and have them make you a meal.

Brandi Sea: 14:50 I mean, I guess.

Michelle: 14:51 Yeah,

Brandi Sea: 14:51 I guess that’s true. So we went there and you guys both surprised me with the most amazing gift. It’s a pair of Blundstone dress boots.

Michelle: 15:01 Which you’ve been wanting.

Brandi Sea: 15:02 For a long time because I only plan on taking one pair of shoes to Europe if I can help it. And I looked up all these reviews and this blog, this Instagramer, that I follow called, uh, her name is Hannah Carpenter. Um, she’s like this really Rad homeschool mom who travels with her kids and stuff and she was wearing these boots like for three months in Europe and it’s the only pair she took. And I was just like, oh my gosh, these look great. Were they comfortable? Like did you have to work in so insoles or inserts and did your feet, hurt, did you have to break the minute? She was like, no. The second I put them on, they felt like I’d been wearing them and they’re great and they have like this little heel. So they go with everything and I’m wearing them right now just to kind of like try and don’t think they need a lot of breaking in. They already feel great, but.

Michelle: 15:44 Yeah, they look really good with the dress that you’re wearing. Not that anybody can see that.

Brandi Sea: 15:48 No.

Michelle: 15:48 But they, they, I didn’t expect them to look good with what you were wearing already.

Brandi Sea: 15:53 With my toothpick legs.

Michelle: 15:54 Oh, I love them. I love them. Well the thing, that’s a great thing because girls, you will be out there to relate with skinny ankles because if you have skinny ankles, regular shoes look like they are like.

Brandi Sea: 16:04 Clown shoes.

Michelle: 16:05 Like they’re clown shoes and like you’re kind of drowning in them. And so they don’t work. And.

Brandi Sea: 16:10 Yeah.

Michelle: 16:10 Like those cute little ankle boots that girls wear. I can’t wear them because they just.

Brandi Sea: 16:15 I have one pair.

Michelle: 16:16 They look like I’m about to roll my ankle. I feel like it too, cause I have no support.

Brandi Sea: 16:21 Yeah.

Michelle: 16:21 And I have weak ankles.

Brandi Sea: 16:22 I know. And then I have, I have a pair of Doc Martens that I’ve had since I was 16 that I still fit into now. They’re big on me cause my foot shrunk. But besides the point, I look like I’m wearing clown shoes. If I wear, I can’t wear them with a skirt.

Michelle: 16:34 Right, right.

Brandi Sea: 16:35 Not that I would, I mean I kind of do if I feel like looking like Liv Tyler.

Michelle: 16:41 It’s kind of like Liv Tyler.

Brandi Sea: 16:41 In Empire Records, which I sometimes do want to do, I always can’t be Liv Tyler then.

Michelle: 16:47 Just just live like her. Live like Liv Tyler.

Brandi Sea: 16:50 Live like Liv Tyler. So that’s basically the highlights of, of this week. Um, I’ve, I’ve set aside these two songs, so I’m gonna say the the other one for the next episode. But um, this week song is by a band called Judah and the Lion,

Michelle: 17:06 You might’ve heard of them, maybe not, but.

Brandi Sea: 17:08 I don’t know.

Michelle: 17:08 If you haven’t here you, here they are.

Brandi Sea: 17:10 And this song is called, why did you run.

Brandi Sea: 17:11 What did you think?

Michelle: 18:32 I like it.

Brandi Sea: 18:33 You like it?

Michelle: 18:33 It’s good.

Brandi Sea: 18:34 It felt really good this morning. I was listening to it on the way to go meet you guys for breakfast and it was raining.

Michelle: 18:39 Oh that’s perfect.

Brandi Sea: 18:40 And it was all cloudy and it was wonderful.

Michelle: 18:42 Super moody outside this morning.

Brandi Sea: 18:43 Yeah.

Michelle: 18:43 I liked it.

Brandi Sea: 18:44 So, um, I obviously the vibe usually catches me first, but I really, this song is, is kind of like if you love something you’ll let it go. Sort of an sort of a concept.

Michelle: 18:56 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 18:57 So, in the beginning, it’s like, um, basically I needed you, where did you go? And it’s like him talking through this story, like why did you run when I needed you the most? But then, in the end, he kind of realizes that like it was for the best and kind of like wishes her well like I hope that you’re happy. Like I hope that you do well and stuff. So it’s not like just super depressing. Like, where did you go? Why did you leave me? It’s like, okay, I can see now.

Michelle: 19:22 It kind of breaks my heart a little bit. Jeez.

Brandi Sea: 19:25 I know. But it was there. There’s some things in the beginning like it sounds like he was calling her from jail, so like maybe he was in a bad place.

Michelle: 19:33 You know what, I’ve been watching, Orange is the new Black, I know all about this. I see it, I understand. Get it Judah and the Lion.

Brandi Sea: 19:39 Yeah. So I just, I thought it was like, it seemed like a healthy like he wrote it when he got to a healthy place and it just kind of, it was just nice. It was like, okay, I like a lot of these songs that I like, but sometimes they seem like they’re just wallowing.

Michelle: 19:54 But this had a nice.

Brandi Sea: 19:55 This had like redemption.

Michelle: 19:56 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 19:56 And it was like a, I think, I think I was feeling it because of the whole Veronica Mars thing cuz.

Michelle: 20:02 I know I get it.

Brandi Sea: 20:03 I know it’s okay. Part of the whole thing with that, with the way the writer said was like the only, which I can go on this whole other rant and I’m going to have to tell you about later. The only way to keep Veronica quote Veronica was to have her lose Logan because she was, this is kind of terrible. She would get into a really good unhealthy place if he were to be in her life.

Michelle: 20:24 Oh yeah. And she needs to not be there.

Brandi Sea: 20:26 And she needs, she needs that drama. So I keep having conversations with Kenny about like.

Michelle: 20:31 Why.

Brandi Sea: 20:31 So why does she, does she need to have trauma in her life just to be interesting. Are girls only interesting if we’re traumatized? It was like a whole thing. So anyways.

Michelle: 20:39 Getting mad at him about it.

Brandi Sea: 20:41 I was so mad.

Michelle: 20:42 How dare you.

Brandi Sea: 20:43 Cuz Kenny’s like I get it as a write, as a person who’s in film and know writer and stuff. Like I can see why he would have to do this. And I’m like, no! No!

Michelle: 20:53 He needs to find a different way.

Brandi Sea: 20:54 Yeah, I did. I was like, this is lazy writing.

Michelle: 20:58 Like, this is the worst show in history.

Brandi Sea: 21:00 No, I wouldn’t go that far. I’m not giving up on you Rob Thomas. But you gotta do us right.

Michelle: 21:05 Come on now Rob, Mr. Thomas.

Brandi Sea: 21:08 So speaking of your, your trip to the goodwill, the goodwill Goodwill’s in the thrift stores and all the places, um, this is kind of what we’re talking about today is like having an eye for thing.

Michelle: 21:20 Yes.

Brandi Sea: 21:20 And we were at the grower’s market and um, I have a friend who’s going to be doing an illustration who is currently doing some illustrations for a possible, um, children’s book client. And she was basically like, you know, this guy needs someone to do the layout and like figure out the design side. And we got to talking and she wants to try and get me on board. But he was like, well don’t you just do graphic design? And she’s like, no, like I’m a painter.

Michelle: 21:48 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 21:48 No. And he was like, well, maybe we can just find somebody cheap to like throw this together. And long story short, she was basically like, I think I may just drop this, this whole project. If he doesn’t want to sign on to having a good designer.

Michelle: 22:00 And that’s all up in the air, right now.

Brandi Sea: 22:02 Yeah. That’s all up in the air. I don’t know. But this, this just sort of led us to this question of like, um, why do people like why do people, why do some people think that like putting out a mediocre product, looking mediocre-looking product is okay, do they not have an eye for it?

Michelle: 22:19 And, and to preface this, even more, we know that the person that is making this book has money. So it’s not,

Brandi Sea: 22:26 They have money to invest in a good designer.

Michelle: 22:27 They have money to invest and they’re not going to, and you said it.

Brandi Sea: 22:30 They may not. We don’t know that yet

Michelle: 22:31 Yeah, you don’t know that. um sorry. You said at the grower’s market perfectly, um, the people who have the money don’t want to invest in the people who don’t have money, don’t have money.

Brandi Sea: 22:41 Yeah.

Michelle: 22:42 So they can’t.

Brandi Sea: 22:43 Right.

Michelle: 22:44 Um, so it’s Kinda like this weird, like, okay, why aren’t you doing this? And so it got us to this question of do they just not want to, do they not know the importance? Can they not see it like this going on?

Brandi Sea: 22:54 Yeah, because um, my mother-in-law gave us very kindly, a friend of hers of self-published this book. Um, and it’s, it’s a really important book. It’s about like, um, body autonomy for kids and making sure that you understand your body is your body and all that good stuff that they need to know.

Michelle: 23:09 Great content.

Brandi Sea: 23:10 But it’s an, you know, I’ve said before, there is a PR, uh, a purpose and a place for every typeface, even Comic Sans. But the whole thing is written in comics and every bit of it and it looks, it looks very much like someone clip arted stuff from like an updated.

Michelle: 23:24 Yeah, updated clipart.

Brandi Sea: 23:25 updated clip art and just.

Michelle: 23:28 Which is not much better.

Brandi Sea: 23:28 Just threw something together and sent it to like a self-publisher that was like, I’ll just print that thing for you. Um, so it kind of undermines how good the content is because of the design. And you said like, do you think that they just, what did you say? Do you think they just don’t know?

Michelle: 23:42 Yeah. Like, like, can they, do you think they just don’t know in that they don’t have an eye? Because I went back to my childhood and I remember looking at books at posters, at TV shows and movies and I would just know if something was done well. Um, and I think that’s obviously been even, I’ve, I’ve learned even more about it now that this is kind of like my line of work. Um, and the community I’ve kind of like I’m in.

Brandi Sea: 24:12 Curated.

Michelle: 24:12 Yeah. Um, but I, I personally had a little bit more of a sense for it. And I’m wondering if that’s just not everyone is, and I guess we’re gonna talk specifically in terms of books today, but for me it was, I just, I don’t, it was for everything. Like I just would know, like, this is not well put, this isn’t done well.

Brandi Sea: 24:33 And you would know well, why? So the the question that I s I posed was like, um, maybe you’re born with it, but also.

Michelle: 24:42 Maybe it’s Maybelline.

Brandi Sea: 24:43 Or maybe it’s Maybelline. I also think that we all, you know, we are all products. Obviously, we believe that we are all products of a creative designer. So because we are made in his image, he is like the creator of beauty. He has an eye for beauty obviously because he made this world. So does I, I kind of feel like we are all born with an eye for beauty and for things. We just don’t realize why we don’t like something is because of it. It’s not done well.

Michelle: 25:13 And.

Brandi Sea: 25:13 Does that makes sense?

Michelle: 25:14 Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that I’m totally on board with that. Um, but I also think that we have this eye for beauty and what looks nice and um, we get confused along the way maybe. Um, and we don’t develop that. We don’t craft our skills. We don’t craft what looks good.

Brandi Sea: 25:37 It’s sort of like someone that might, you know, naturally be good at guitar, but they don’t get better because they don’t practice sort of.

Michelle: 25:47 Yeah, I think so. I think so. So in regards to this, um, this specific, like we’re going along with this with books do, did you, can you go back to a time where you didn’t know why you didn’t like it or did you always have that sense that some like this is not good because.

Brandi Sea: 26:10 You know, I don’t know that I, I think it was more on the positive side where I don’t know that I would so much say like I don’t like that because it was more I like this because it was like,

Michelle: 26:21 You knew why.

Brandi Sea: 26:22 I knew I could tell you why I liked something. It was harder for me to pinpoint, which I think is what we’re getting at. Like why I didn’t like something until I understood a little bit more about what I liked. Um, and at first I thought it was just a preference thing. So I think I’ve talked about before and I know how this sounds, but it is what it is. Like I’ve kind of always been sort of a trendsetter. Unintentionally. I just have always known what I like.

Michelle: 26:49 You know, what you like and you do it.

Brandi Sea: 26:51 And I do it and it, it almost always happens like something I like to wear to buy to listen to whatever it is. I am always just a bit ahead. And so that’s always been how it is. And you know, buying children’s books, I was very into like graphic novels before. I didn’t even know they were graphic novels. I just liked them. And um, they were like classic like Robinson Crusoe, like the classic books and they were like in comp I thought they were in like comic form, come to find out later that they’re graphic novels and then graphic novels like blew up.

Michelle: 27:29 Became of thing.

Brandi Sea: 27:30 So it was, it was something that was already of good quality but I had.

Michelle: 27:35 You noticed it long before.

Brandi Sea: 27:35 I noticed it before. So I think that it, it can be kind of nature more so for some people than others. But also this plays into like the enneagram thing and I think that was my for you know like coming up. I think I was a lot more on the four side growing up. I was, I don’t know that I started coming into the three until like later teenage years, but I was always very like, you know, into art and drawing and music and um, that might’ve been nurture too because even though I was like maybe born with some of this, my dad collects art, he’s a creative, he can draw, he designs beautiful custom homes and my mom is a musician and.

Michelle: 28:20 So you were surrounded.

Brandi Sea: 28:21 I’m surrounded by all this good art. So I think that, similar to my thoughts on just like raising children and who we are, there’s like the big discussion about nature versus nurture and science. Like, are kids the way they are because of their environment or the kids the way they are because of how they’re born and their genes and their enneagram type or whatever.

Michelle: 28:42 Science.

Brandi Sea: 28:43 Yes, science. And I think that it’s kind of somewhere in the middle, but I think that if you want to have a better eye for design and art, you have, you have to practice.

Michelle: 28:54 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 28:54 Like you have to go look at things more and figure out what’s, what’s what.

Michelle: 28:59 And learn from people that are more experienced in it. How would you, like, what are some things that you would suggest people do to nurture, say specifically this?

Brandi Sea: 29:11 So let’s, since we’re kind of, you know, book books are, if always a fun thing for me, and I’ve said this before, like to go check out books at the bookstore and you know, try and figure out what the book’s about. But also, um, the really interesting,

Michelle: 29:24 Like looking at the cover of the book.

Brandi Sea: 29:24 Really interesting exercise to do too is, um, go to the children’s book section and check all the books on the moon or something. And, um, and this example that we were talking about, this book on body autonomy for kids, I actually had purchased one online for, for my kiddos a while back. That’s really well done. It’s almost identical content, which sidebar might be,

Michelle: 29:47 Is that plagiarism?

Brandi Sea: 29:47 It might be a thing, but, um, it’s really well illustrated. It’s very well written for the age and the thing that it’s supposed to be. And so if you were to put these two books side by side to someone who’s uneducated, they would choose the better designed one.

Michelle: 30:04 Yes.

Brandi Sea: 30:05 Um, but then asking why?

Michelle: 30:07 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 30:08 Always.

Michelle: 30:08 Always asking why.

Brandi Sea: 30:09 Always asking why. I mean, how do you, when I go to buy, so.

Michelle: 30:14 If you’re buying the same exact book.

Brandi Sea: 30:15 Buying children. Well, but if I’m buying children’s books, I don’t care how good the content is. If I don’t like the illustration style.

Michelle: 30:22 Put it back on the shelf.

Brandi Sea: 30:23 Design isn’t done well it’s not, I’m not buying it. And on the F on the reverse, if it is done well, I’ll pay an extra five bucks for that book.

Michelle: 30:31 Yeah. Like I’d say all the books that you have like you could go into DJ’s bedroom where all her books are and you would know which books mom and dad bought and the books that were given to her. You would know because they are drastically different. Like I keep the books that were given to her cause they’re given to her by special people.

Brandi Sea: 30:50 Right, right.

Michelle: 30:51 And also because big.

Brandi Sea: 30:53 Well and sometimes they’re just for fun. Not forever books.

Michelle: 30:56 They’re their site, but their sight word books. And helping her along with that.

Brandi Sea: 31:00 Right.

Michelle: 31:00 And so like I keep them for the rest,

Brandi Sea: 31:02 They’re for this time in life books

Michelle: 31:03 You would know who got what.

Brandi Sea: 31:06 Right. So, um, you know, especially if you out there are thinking of like writing a book or especially writing a children’s book and um, you know, like, you know, I just don’t have a lot of money to invest, you know, then you probably should just wait because you’re not going to do your content justice and, um, people will not see you for who you are if they’re seeing the bad design. It may be a brilliant, brilliantly written book, but if the illustration is terrible, even in the design is good, it’s still not gonna work. Like it has to be like a whole, a whole package deal.

Michelle: 31:41 I saw you and your friend talking at the grower’s market. I was a little bit involved. Mostly I had to pee, but um, you guys were talking and it was like you weren’t mad at each other or any, there wasn’t any like.

Brandi Sea: 31:53 Oh gosh no.

Michelle: 31:54 Anything towards each other at all. But you were both like heated because you’re passionate about putting out good product and working with someone who doesn’t understand that is really, um, I understand is really frustrating because you not only have like are trying to work with them, but you’re having to educate them in the process, and convinced them as to why this is a good idea when they asked for your help in the beginning.

Brandi Sea: 32:17 Right.

Michelle: 32:18 Um, so how would you, I don’t know, how would you go about, um, go about educating someone as in the why they need that?

Brandi Sea: 32:28 So I mean, there’s a lot of logistical things. So the simplest thing, and this is actually something I’m going to do, I’m going to actually take over to her the book that was given to me by my mother in law, just so she could take to him this meeting and say like, look.

Michelle: 32:40 You should read both books.

Brandi Sea: 32:42 Yeah, yeah. That’s probably a good idea. Then, here’s, here’s potentially what you can get when you go the cheap way. Um, she was very insulted that he, um, asked her as she’s, she’s a beautiful painter.

Michelle: 32:55 Oh my gosh. She’s

Brandi Sea: 32:56 She’s an oil painter.

Michelle: 32:57 Incredible.

Brandi Sea: 32:58 Um, and so she’s created all these custom illustrations, which he, he already like kind of

Michelle: 33:03 Signed off on.

Brandi Sea: 33:03 Basically signed off on. Um, and then, um, was like, okay, can you do this? She’s like, no, but I know somebody. And then he wanted her to go cheap and she was like, you know, um, I don’t know what to do. So I told her, what if I just like Kenny told me, you should just take this book over to her and show him. So that’s part of educating is showing the difference because it doesn’t really, it’s really hard to illustrate to somebody, um, you know, what you will get if you go the cheap way.

Michelle: 33:33 Yeah

Brandi Sea: 33:33 It’s sort of easy if like if you have a, I always use a plumber just cause it’s easy. It’s like, well, if you use a cheap plumber, he’s using duct tape and it’s not going to hold because it’s not a pipe.

Michelle: 33:43 Right.

Brandi Sea: 33:43 You know, but it’s harder when it seems very artsy and very like, oh, well that’s just because you’re a designer. It doesn’t need to be that fancy.

Michelle: 33:51 Yeah. And it’s kind of like, um, I know we have a, we have a, she’s a friend, more of an acquaintance to me, um, who works with flowers and gets that all of the time. It’s like, well, this is my budget. Can you give me, you know, this amazing arrangement? But it’s like, no, that’s not how this works. They want the, they want to go the cheap route, so you’re going to get Austra Maria is the cheapest flower and it’s not going to be what you expect. And it’s like, it’s just hard to work with those type of people who are adamant about not about going the cheap route.

Brandi Sea: 34:28 Right. And it is sort of hard and I do understand, you know, that not everybody has money.

Michelle: 34:33 Yeah. True.

Brandi Sea: 34:33 And in that case, you know, it’s almost like when, when you’re going to build a house, um, you either buy what you can afford or you save up to get what you really want. And design is no different. Like if I were going to be, if I wasn’t a designer and I knew the value of design and I needed something, um, I would not just go the cheap route, just like get it out faster. I would much rather have, you know, the correct, beautiful thing and have it take a little bit longer to come out and save up money or do payments or, you know, whenever I designed for clients that don’t have a lot of money, um, I don’t usually charge less, but I can spread it out.

Michelle: 35:19 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 35:20 So like there are, there are.

Michelle: 35:22 Options.

Brandi Sea: 35:22 Options for figuring that out. So the first thing I would do with someone like this is just show them the difference. Um, another thing too is to ask them like, what are your, like, what is it that you want to get out of this? Because if, if they just want to have like their book at a couple of local bookstores and they don’t really want to make money, they don’t really care. It was just more of a passion thing. Um, maybe not, maybe, maybe you don’t need to invest all this money in this, but if you are trying to like get a book publisher to buy in, if you are trying to get this in the local Barnes and Noble and you know, actually get good sales, put it in schools. Do talks, do book signings, like all of this stuff.

Michelle: 36:10 Put the hard work in.

Brandi Sea: 36:11 You. Yeah. Why would you not invest every possible avenue and then especially if you have money.

Michelle: 36:17 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 36:18 I don’t, I don’t under, I just personally don’t understand. I’ve always had to save up for things I want.

Michelle: 36:22 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 36:22 And that’s okay.

Michelle: 36:23 That’s me. Me Too. But as.

Brandi Sea: 36:25 But also if you have the money for something you really want, you do it.

Michelle: 36:28 Yeah. It’s, I don’t get it. I mean, Ariana Grande I sang about it best if you, she wants it. She’s got it. So just get it like put it in the bag. It’s yours. You got the money. It’s not a problem.

Brandi Sea: 36:37 Yeah. And that’s kind of where I think, um, my friend and I are, are feeling frustrated. It’s like he has the money. He, he’s already invested a bunch in certain other aspects of this process.

Michelle: 36:48 Why stop here?

Brandi Sea: 36:49 Why stop? Like why stop just just here.

Michelle: 36:52 You’re at the finish line.

Brandi Sea: 36:53 This is the last bit. So, um, you know, and also it’s not in regards to a book, it’s not just about the cover either. Cause some, some people were like, well can you just design the book cover for me and you know, I’ll figure out the rest. And it’s like okay, if this is a novel, yeah. The book cover is the whole thing. Pretty much.

Michelle: 37:12 Yeah.

Brandi Sea: 37:12 Um, have you do have usually have to hire a layout designer, but a lot of times the publishers cover that. But if it’s like a picture book or a coffee table book or a children’s book.

Michelle: 37:22 Layout is everything.

Brandi Sea: 37:22 Layout is everything.

Michelle: 37:24 Like if go look at, that’s another fun thing. Go to Barnes and Noble, go to your low. We were just story and look at coffee table books. They.

Brandi Sea: 37:33 Look at the children’s book.

Michelle: 37:33 The children’s books are incredible. They do not cut corners. They don’t.

Brandi Sea: 37:39 And I’ve seen some really well-done self-published books because they weren’t afraid to invest. And that is always, it is an investment, but you will get return on investment when you when you invest in design.

Michelle: 37:51 So all this to say for you who are going to be talking to a client or maybe someday potentially want to write your own children’s book, but so you know how to fight for what is right. Gotta fight for the right to party man. You got to do it.

Brandi Sea: 38:05 Fight for the right to have good design.

Michelle: 38:07 Have good design. Beastie boys missed out.

Brandi Sea: 38:10 I know, man. Hit them up.

Michelle: 38:13 Come on guys. Um, so show options between good and bad, you know, books or whatever it is

Brandi Sea: 38:21 Yeah, show the two ends of the spectrum. This is what it could look like if you don’t do it the right way. And here’s what it can look like if you do.

Michelle: 38:27 Yeah. And ask them what they want out of this.

Brandi Sea: 38:30 Yeah. And then, you know, they.

Michelle: 38:31 And make your decision.

Brandi Sea: 38:32 And they can have good conversations about like, um, and then this is where your, your job as the designer comes in to show them your work, to show them your capabilities, to explain your process and tell them all the stuff that goes into what you do so that they understand they’re not just paying you however much money to get, you know, to throw something together in Photoshop.

Michelle: 38:54 Yep.

Brandi Sea: 38:54 Because that’s, let’s be honest, that’s what they think we do.

Michelle: 38:56 That’s what they think. I mean, this is absolutely zero offense to anybody who has asked me this question, but people have been messaging me and being like, Hey, I hear you’re a designer and I’m just like, Ooh.

Brandi Sea: 39:08 Where did you hear that?

Michelle: 39:10 No, that is, I mean, absolutely not.

Brandi Sea: 39:13 Guilty by association.

Michelle: 39:13 Guilty by association. Um, I, I have zero ability in that, but like they, they think that I can do that. And also I’ve been asked, um, by one person, I just remembered who the first person was that asked me, cause I couldn’t remember this. I couldn’t remember the first person. Um, and she was like, but can you do it? And I was like, I literally can only open Photoshop, which is what I think you want me to work in. Like that’s all I can do in Photoshop is open it and then it gives me error messages cause I haven’t updated it. So no I can’t do it.

Brandi Sea: 39:47 Oh my gosh.

Michelle: 39:48 No, I can not.

Brandi Sea: 39:51 So the majority of this is, is you know, have conversations and educate in the kindest way that you can. But if, if they’re trying to get you to do things the cheap way or like what’s going to be the cheapest way to do this? Um, usually those are red flags for me. It’s like, okay, if I, if we’re having a conversation, excuse me for having a conversation and you say, okay, well how can we do this cheaper? I’m not, I’m not your girl.

Michelle: 40:18 Yep.

Brandi Sea: 40:18 And so.

Michelle: 40:19 Good for you. Know, know your value, know your worth as well.

Brandi Sea: 40:22 Yeah. So I think that you know, that everybody has the ability to, to, you know, to know good style. But I also think there are people that are naturally a little bit better at it and that’s okay. But if you actually really want to get good at it, you can.

Michelle: 40:37 You know what? I’m not naturally very good with, uh, just musically I have an inclination, but I have to work really hard. Um, and I’ve seen that pay off in my own personal life, but it is not like a supernatural ha, ha, supernatural type of thing.

Brandi Sea: 40:57 And it’s like me with drawing and painting, it’s like I can paint, but if I want to be good at it, I’m going to have to work really hard.

Michelle: 41:04 I can sing. But if you want me to lead a song, I’m gonna have to throw up a few times and practice really hard. So,

Brandi Sea: 41:12 Whoa, wait a second.

Michelle: 41:13 I get really nervous.

Brandi Sea: 41:14 Oh it’s nervous. I’m all, is this part of your process?

Michelle: 41:17 It’s really good. It makes my voice raspy. No, no.

Brandi Sea: 41:21 You never know. I just.

Michelle: 41:22 I get nervous and then I’m in the middle of the song and I’m like, oh my gosh, you’re singing it. And I’m like, stop thinking about you singing it and just sing the song.

Brandi Sea: 41:30 You like go outside of your body. You’re like watching yourself.

Michelle: 41:32 So scary. I get all nervous even thinking about it right now. I don’t want to.

Brandi Sea: 41:36 So yeah, I think, I think that, um, you know, this was kind of born out of a frustration, this conversation, but I think that it’s, it’s just so, it’s so much fun for me to like honestly try and figure out why I like things. And so if you want to learn.

Michelle: 41:51 That’s your favorite question. Why?

Brandi Sea: 41:53 Yeah. Why, why do I like things? Why is this good? Why is this not good? Why do I want this book over this book? And, um.

Michelle: 42:00 So this is just an encouragement to be, to have a more critical eye and think of why you’re having a critical eye.

Brandi Sea: 42:07 You’re s you’re so rhymey today. All this talk about children’s books are regular doctor Seuss.

Michelle: 42:12 I know. Mrs.

Brandi Sea: 42:15 Mrs. Frizzle Seuss?

Michelle: 42:16 Mrs. Frizzle Seuss. Soups. I don’t know.

Brandi Sea: 42:19 All right, so Michelle, where can people find us?

Michelle: 42:21 Well, um, you can find us on all forms of social media, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter via, @brandisea You can spell your name for them.

Brandi Sea: 42:29 B. R. A. N. D. I. S. E. A.

Michelle: 42:31 You can also find us on Instagram @designspeakspodcast where you can keep updated with the podcast specifically, find some good quotes and all of the good stuff is there. So @designspeakspodcast.

Brandi Sea: 42:42 I think the Lacroix one is my favorite, so far.

Michelle: 42:45 Oh yeah, it’s so good. Speaking of Vesperteen posted a bunch of Lacroix on his story.

Brandi Sea: 42:51 Of course he did.

Michelle: 42:51 Huge thank you to Vesperteen for allowing us to use his songs Shatter in the Night as the intro and outro to our podcast. He also just released a bunch of music on his sad son’s EP, which is a very excited, we said earlier that he had been signed and he’s doing cool things. He has a release show tonight, um, which is a Saturday night.

Brandi Sea: 43:14 Let’s go. Let’s fly.

Michelle: 43:15 Let’s go. Let’s go to Ohio and then we’ll hit up New York right after.

Brandi Sea: 43:17 Sounds good.

Michelle: 43:19 Um, if you’d liked to give us a five-star review on iTunes, that’d be fantastic. Go for it. If you get any value out of this show, go give us a review.

Brandi Sea: 43:26 Share it with your friends.

Michelle: 43:27 Go tell your friends, go tell your coworkers, go tell your kids.

Brandi Sea: 43:31 Go tell it on the mountain.

Michelle: 43:32 On the mountain. That’d be great. And it’s Christmas almost. It’s almost Christmas time. Got only six more months. No, four more months. September, October, November. So four more months. Holy Moly. We need to get Christmas shopping.

Brandi Sea: 43:43 Stop it, you to show me so much anxiety. Okay, guys. Gotta go shopping now.

Michelle: 43:46 Okay. I’m a once again, check out our show notes for links and info. Thank you, Joelle, for that on all of our designs episodes

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Thank you to Vesperteen for allowing us to use his song Shatter in the Night as our intro and outro music for Design Speaks

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THANK YOU to the ultra-talented  Vesperteen (Colin Rigsby) for letting us use his (“Shatter in The Night”) track in every episode of Design Speaks.