Design Speaks Episode 133  – Chapter 5: Guest Mark Brickey

BrandiSea: [00:00:00] Welcome to Design Speaks, the podcast that helps you discover uncommon inspiration so you can make more meaningful work. I’m Brandi Sea my cohost  is Julie Haider. Today we’re going to be talking about creative flow and making what you love for the people who love it. Stay tuned for that coming up later in the show.

So Julie, how much do you love Disneyland? 

Okay, don’t hate me. 

Design Speaks Ep 57: [00:00:35] Oh, no. 

Um, I’ve never been to Disneyland or Disney World. And I’m not really a big Disney fan. I’m so sorry. 

I’m going to have Kenny insert the “wah wah wah”. 

Um, yeah. I fully expected to be kicked off this podcast now, so it was a great run, guys. 

Now that we’re comfortable, she’s leaving. Sorry. Strike three. Strike three. You’re an Android user and I don’t remember what the other one was.  

Just my phone. Everything else is Apple. 

I don’t–I don’t know. That just seems to be really complicated. 

Alright, see you later, guys. It was fun. 

Okay. All right. So, yeah, I guess we are done. No. Uh, the interview we have today is probably, I mean–I’ve met a lot of people that really love Disney.

I know–I know multiple people who go once or twice a year to Disneyland or Disney World. I know people that go every time they go to California and, like, can beat me at every Disney game–including my husband. But this guy, his name is Mark Brickey. He’s actually the founder and head podcast guy over at the Adventures In Design Podcast Network.

He said he goes every week. 

Julie: [00:01:51] Whoa. That’s some dedication and some real love. 

BrandiSea: [00:01:54] That’s some real love. I know. So, he talks with me about creative flow and how to make space for being inspired and even, like, how we can take the things we love and make them for the people who love them, which is really intriguing.

Um, and he obviously works in a lot of Disney into this conversation. So–

Julie: [00:02:15] There’s a lot to learn from Disney. I mean, even though, like, that’s not really my thing. I know there’s a lot to learn from them as a company. 

BrandiSea: [00:02:21] You’re rehired. 

Julie: [00:02:22] Okay, good. Okay, I’m back. 

BrandiSea: [00:02:25] So, so we’ll, we’ll listen to that here in a little bit. 

My inspiration isn’t always like super tangible as far as, like, here’s something I saw and here’s something I can make from it. Sometimes it’s more of an ideological inspiration, and this week I was, sort of, I was thinking about you because you–you hike a lot and you explore a lot. And I was, sort of, thinking of this idea of, like, hiking with, like, a plan and, like, the difference between hiking and exploring. It’s sort of like–

Julie: [00:02:56] Yeah. 

BrandiSea: [00:02:57] What would you say, like, to you before I say, like, what that means to me? What, what does that feel like to you? If I said, like, I’m going to go hiking or I’m going to go exploring. Like, in your mind, what does that–

Julie: [00:03:07] Yeah.

Um, I mean, the word “exploring” is kind of thrown around a lot these days. But, putting that aside, hiking, usually, like, you’ve got a map, you know where you’re going. Like, what’s at the end of this trail? How long is it going to take? How much uphill and downhill is there? How long am I going to be out there?

All that stuff. And exploring is more, I dunno, free flow, I guess. And you’re just kinda, like, “Oh, we’ll see where this goes and maybe we’ll find the end and maybe we won’t”. I don’t know. 

BrandiSea: [00:03:34] Maybe get lost and need rescuing.

Julie: [00:03:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s more, um, like, less of a plan and more just free and, yeah. 

BrandiSea: [00:03:44] Yeah. So, so that’s exactly where I was kind of going with this.

I was thinking about design and how so many designers are explorers and hikers. It’s–it’s very much like, “I’m just going to kind of get on the computer and I have this client, but I–I sort of have, like, I know where it needs to be. Like, I know I need to find an end. I don’t really know what that looks like. I don’t know what I might find along the way. You know, I’m creative and I’m an artist and I’m just going to like go with whatever”–and you will need rescuing. You’re going to get lost because you don’t have a goal. You don’t have a plan. 

Julie: [00:04:20] Yeah. I mean if you have, like, a mountain peak in mind or a waterfall and you’re just, like, “I think it’s in this direction. We’ll head this way”. It’s going to take you a lot longer to get there. 

BrandiSea: [00:04:32] Especially me, cause I’m terrible with directions. We’ve established this. 

Julie: [00:04:35] Yes, we have. Yes. So have a plan, have a trail. Know what you’re doing. 

BrandiSea: [00:04:40] Exactly. So, I was just thinking, you know, I don’t know why–like these weird analogies–like resume– everything comes back to design and creativity for me somehow. But I was like, you know, I want to be–if I’m going to go on a hike, like, this is–this is reality. If–if Kenny wants me to go on a hike, there needs to be some reward. At the end of the day, I’m like a dog. I’m like, give me a treat. I need something pretty to see at the end.

I need, like, to have a rough idea of, like, okay, how long is this going to take? How hard is it going to be? Because then I can prepare my mind. And so, like, for me it was thinking about another–I’m always trying to think of ways to help designers understand the importance of strategy. And these weird analogies–

Julie: [00:05:21] No, I think that’s a great analogy. 

BrandiSea: [00:05:23] –Sometimes really work. And I think I was just thinking about you and what you do, and then the fact that we didn’t end up going on our hike when we went to Durango, that one day for Val–was it Valentines? I guess it was Valentines. Yeah, and it was like, okay, so we sort of, like, had a plan and it didn’t work out, and then we ended up exploring.

Which was–which was definitely fun. And I think that where you can separate,in your work, the exploring from the hiking is very much when you’re working on your own projects is, like, you know, explore. Play a bit. Like, find something that’s interesting to you and follow those rabbit trails. Like, it is important to do that because that’s where you find really interesting things. But when you have a client that’s expecting, like, an actual end outcome–it’s like, if a client calls you and is, like, “Julie, like, we’d really like to go to Hawaii and elope” and you’re like, “Cool, um, meet me at nine o’clock, be dressed, be ready, and we’ll just explore for a few hours”.

Julie: [00:06:19] That’s a terrible idea.

BrandiSea: [00:06:19] We’ll see what happens. You will–you will definitely be fired. And they will hate you. 

Julie: [00:06:25] Not a good idea. 

BrandiSea: [00:06:25] Yeah. So, you don’t want that from your clients. So that was just kind of, like, my inspiration this week was, like, okay, there’s another really interesting way to look at the importance of strategy. 

Julie: [00:06:36] Yeah, absolutely. Being prepared is super important in all of those, you know, in hiking and in design.

BrandiSea: [00:06:43] Don’t get lost.

Music: [00:06:59] This Must Be The Place, Sure Sure

BrandiSea: [00:07:10] That was, This Must Be The Place by the band Sure Sure. 

I’ve been listening to this song for at least a year and it–it kind of came back around to me this past weekend when I was in the car with my family. We were listening to a playlist. This song came on, but it didn’t quite sound like this song. And then, I realized that this song that I been listening to and loving all this time is actually another cover. Apparently I just love covers. The real reason that this song has, kind of, stuck with me all this time, I think is, well, the–the beat is really fun. It’s very–it’s very, like, foot tappy and ear warmy, and I–I love that with a good song, but there’s a lot of these lyrics that I really resonate with.

And a while back, I actually did a little handwritten lettered thing that I posted on Instagram on the lyrics, “never for money, always for love”. I really think that this song just happens to be really appropriate to the episode with our guest today. The lyrics, “I’ve got plenty of time, you got light in your eyes and you’re standing here beside me. I love the passing of time, never for money, always for love”. 

I really think that it’s important to think of the time that you have and realize that money should not guide everything that you do. While we do need money, and we can’t always only do things for love, I think that we need to make space for doing things we love just because we love it, and doing it for the people that love it adds, sort of, another layer of meaning to the things that we’re doing.

On air today I have founder and ultimate podcast guy doing over a thousand episodes of Adventures In Design Podcasts. 

Mark Brickey: [00:09:24] 1100, but who’s counting? 

BrandiSea: [00:09:26] I mean 1,115 but–Okay, so actually, I know you know this. How many episodes have you recorded of just the Adventures In Design Podcast? 

Mark Brickey: [00:09:36] That would be hard to do because I do so many different shows, and I do them all under the same umbrella. So ballpark, I’m at, like, 1100 plus. How many of those were technically Adventures In Design would probably be somewhere around 700 or 800 of those. That’s just a monkey math guess. But, um, yeah, the whole thing, kind of, fits under the same umbrella.

And what I started to do was, I started to diversify the show because I do so many episodes; it’s my full time job. And I really got worried about fatigue. Would the audience want to listen to the same thing all the time? Would I want to talk about the same thing all the time? So, I decided to, kind of, break it apart, turn it into a bunch of different smaller podcasts under one umbrella.

Uh, the through line is me, but the conversation is different. And so different vocals, different art, gives the listener an idea of what they’re going to get that day. 

BrandiSea: [00:10:28] So, for our audience, who may have not heard of you. Can you give me, like, the 30–the 30 second elevator pitch of, like, who you are and why we’re here?

Mark Brickey: [00:10:42] Why we’re here is because you asked me, thank you for having me. Your studio’s a lot bigger and nicer than mine. I got to get one of those couches. 

BrandiSea: [00:10:49] Uh, I wish. 

Mark Brickey: [00:10:50] Adventurs in Design is–

BrandiSea: [00:10:51] The theater of the mind. We can tell people what–whatever we want them to see. 

Mark Brickey: [00:10:55] Absolutely. As I’ve gotten into video, it’s a lot less theatery than radio. Adventures In Design is basically the conquest to talk to people that have figured out a way to turn their daydream into their day job. Early, that was based around art design, cause that was my interest. And it’s still stuff that I’m passionate about, but there’s a much larger world out there. And I find sometimes that you can get really great advice listening to people that aren’t doing exactly what you’re doing. Because when somebody’s doing the same job you’re doing, it’s easy to get fixated on the small details. “Well, they have bigger clients than me”, or “they have a partner and I’m by myself”. 

But you listen to somebody who’s like, “I always wanted to make a movie and I fought hard to make a movie”. That human storyline is inspirational to everyone because, really, the creative struggle is the same for all of us. At the end of the day, what you do is just a widget. So I document those types of conversations and then from, time to time, just to keep it loose and fun. I love hanging out with my reoccurring guests, which are some of my best friends. I’ve met– 

BrandiSea: [00:11:55] That helps, when they’re really good friends.

Mark Brickey: [00:11:57] And , well, the thing is too, is that, if you care about me, you care about my friendships. And the more you get to know these people, the more they become your friends. And essentially, what I always wanted to do is–being creative as a lonely space. Even if you’re an office of a hundred people, when you’re creating, you’re lonely. 

BrandiSea: [00:12:14] Amen. 

Mark Brickey: [00:12:14] And I just–the show’s very informative, but very conversational.

It goes wherever it goes, and I just always wanted to keep creative people company and you do the work and I hang out in your ear holes. That’s always been the way that we do it. 

BrandiSea: [00:12:27] What a cool idea. So did you start–did you start the podcast out–this isn’t where this whole conversation is going, but I’m just interested. Like, did you start out wanting this to be, like, a daily thing or did that just kind of evolve as you thought, like, people need some company. 

Mark Brickey: [00:12:41] So, I think, on the second episode, when it was completely a hobby, I said, “Hey, I’m having so much fun doing this. I want to quit my job. You guys figure out a way to pay me and then we’ll do this”. And it was a joke, but right out of the gate, I knew that I loved it. And the first year, or the first two years, when it was a hobby, I was just obsessed.

I’m like, I’ve got to find a way to do this full time. Cause the world needs this version of me more than they need another designer, illustrator version of me. 

BrandiSea: [00:13:10] So–so ultimately, how long did it take before you–you were able to, not beg people to pay you, but where people were like, “yeah, dude. Like, keep making this stuff. Quit your job and we want to hear your voice every day. 

Mark Brickey: [00:13:25] November–November 14, 2014. Yeah, 14, 2014 of November was when I made the leap. And I had been doing this show, at that moment, for about, uh, two years and 11 months. Almost three years of grinding and doing a hundred episodes with zero money from anyone.

Uh, and I think a big part of that story is–is that, because I had already proven that I was capable of doing it, and a lot of my listeners had seen how hard I was fighting for it. The day that I said, you can now pay for bonus content, and what I’ll do is I’ll make the show Monday through Friday, and you guys can get almost sometimes a second episode that’s exclusively for you as a reward. Or the second part of the conversation where we talk about stuff that we don’t feel comfortable putting out on iTunes or Apple podcast, now. Um, and in that very first day when I said, I’m going to do this, you guys have the opportunity to support me, I got enough subscribers that it became my full time job in one day.

Now, that’s a glamorous story, but there was almost three years of killing myself. 

BrandiSea: [00:14:27] No, What do they say? That it took a lot of work to get to an overnight success. It seems that way to everybody else, but showing up for you was definitely not overnight. 

Mark Brickey: [00:14:38] But it was a huge gamble. And one thing that I like to add to that is that I was transparent and I told the audience, I’m like, if I don’t get the money, this goes away.

And not one of you, not one of you, has the right to complain because I never asked you to work for free. So, I basically put it on their shoulders. If you want this, pay for it. If you don’t want it, don’t pay for it and it goes away. But don’t complain if it’s not here tomorrow. 

BrandiSea: [00:14:58] Right. Wow, that’s, that’s a pretty bold statement.

But you, you seem like a very bold guy, and I feel like that was a great strategy. Um, I think that a lot of people sort of are a little bit mousy about it when they go into these kind of ventures. It’s like, “well, I’m just gonna, I’m going to, kind of, put this thing. And if you like it, then that’s nice”. 

Mark Brickey: [00:15:16] I mean, mousy doesn’t work when it’s your life and you’re an adult and you have bills, you gotta pay.

You gotta be aggressive and furthermore, how are you going to believe in me if, if I don’t believe in me? 

BrandiSea: [00:15:27] Right. Absolutely. You gotta have that confidence. 

Mark Brickey: [00:15:29] Confidence trickles down from the top to everyone else, especially when you’re a content creator. 

BrandiSea: [00:15:33] Especially when you’re a creative too. 

Mark Brickey: [00:15:35] Yes, yes. And– 

BrandiSea: [00:15:36] Confidence is so hard to come by sometimes. It’s like, I don’t know. What do you think? As opposed to like, no, I know this works and here’s why. 

Mark Brickey: [00:15:44] Yeah, and you know, one of the things I’m really excited about in this time that we live in right now is that there’s so many strong female role models out there. Because I’ve started–as I’ve been on this quest of trying to interview women, there’s a different–at women my age, most of the time there’s a different, sort of, self confidence in a different way that they hold themselves and– 

BrandiSea: [00:16:02] May I ask your age.

Mark Brickey: [00:16:05] Uh, I am 45. And so when I talk to women that are generally in their thirties and forties. As I’ve interviewed them, there’s just a different mindset of men in that same age bracket. But when I look at my nieces who are constantly seeing all these strong female superheroes and stuff, I just really hope that that can get to a moment where that like–come into the office room and own the room–I hope that that’s a non-gender thing in the future. 

BrandiSea: [00:16:29] I do too. I am–I’m 38 so I’m somewhere in that range. But I also feel very strongly about, you know, especially in the design space, like, making sure that there’s more female voices and I definitely am glad to be–to be one of them. 

Mark Brickey: [00:16:44] It’s getting there. 

BrandiSea: [00:16:45] Yeah, I agree. 

So props to you for trying to have more female voices on your show.

I think that. For someone that has such a platform, like yourself, is only going to add to the bigger and better conversation. 

Mark Brickey: [00:16:56] So it’s not easy, but we’re trying to do it. 

BrandiSea: [00:16:58] Yeah. Well, good job on that. So, um, we were talking while we were trying to organize this interview about, you know, what–what might be really beneficial that we could talk about for the listeners.

Um, and we kind of came to this idea of talking about, not necessarily clients, but designing for–designing things for the people that love the thing. So designing what you love for the people that love it. So, um, what is your experience in, you know, you called it designing straight to the consumer. What does that–what does that mean to you?

I know what it means to me, but what does that look like in your mind? 

Mark Brickey: [00:17:34] So there’s a villain on Adventures In Design and this villain’s name is Rick from Marketing. And Rick from Marketing represents the worst clients, and  it’s reall– Rick is the sort of, um, he’s this character where you do really good work, and then the client just prunes it and cuts it back till it’s just not fun anymore. And I got sick of not being able to get the type of jobs I wanted because my clients were, in essence, they were financially pushing me forward. But they were holding me back creatively. 

And so my wife and I, we started to look–my wife was my business partner by the way. Uh, we started to look at what would it look like if we just removed clients from the equation? What if we just designed straight to the consumer? Wouldn’t it be great to make money doing exactly what you want to do for the people that enjoy it the most? Can I curse on your show?

BrandiSea: [00:18:24] I’ll just throw an “E” on this one. You be you.  

Mark Brickey: [00:18:27] Thank you. So it was basically, like, how can we just fuck Rick, and get him out of the equation, and do our own thing? And, um, it really, uh, it was a little bit of a mind fuck in the beginning. Because you’re so trained to make clients happy and you’re also so trained that my value is in who’s hiring me and how many emails are in my inbox and how many meetings I have this week.

And that’s not your value. Your value is what you can offer to a community. 

BrandiSea: [00:18:56] Your unique perspective. 

Mark Brickey: [00:18:57] And it took a long time to do that. And when we were doing this, it was relatively unknown. 2008, when the economy melted down and clients started pulling back on their budgets, we just said, well, let’s just go fuck Rick.

He’s–Rick doesn’t have our back. We always knew Rick didn’t have our back, and so we just went straight to the consumer. And, you know–once again, this sounds glamorous. It was not an overnight success. We had been doing a lot of work in that space. We’d been flirting with that space and when we decided to go for it, it was a hard push.

But we got there and, until we both kind of stopped being professional designers, we had a great seven year run where we were largely client free. In the last couple of years, zero. Client free. And if I look at my life, the last time I was ever hired to do anything for anybody was six years ago, and–caveat for everybody who’s listening who doesn’t know who I am, which most of the people. Nice to meet you. I live in Los Angeles and it’s really expensive, so it’s not like I’m doing this in the middle of Ohio in a barn in my papaw’s back yard. I’m grinding out here. 

BrandiSea: [00:20:00] So what did those seven years of, quote, like, client free work look like for you?

What was it that you work creating in tha– in that time? 

Mark Brickey: [00:20:08] So we went into a product line. And our product line was diverse in that me and my wife had a similar interest in different interests. My wife is now a notable person in the wellness space in — in a well known, food blogger here in Los Angeles. So we started designing stuff for the kitchen.

Uh, hand printed organic tea towels, you know, 8 by 10 prints that were easy to print. You know, selling smaller prints is like selling slices of pizza. You know, you sell a pizza,you can get 12 bucks. You sell slices, you can get $4 per, you make more money. We started doing stuff like that. 

I really have always been a fan of architecture. So I started doing a lot of architectural renderings, abstract renderings of various places that I had been and that I loved. And then just kind of, like, this is a good idea and–are kicking the tires of any idea is, that sounds fun to make. So that’s box number one.

 But box number two is, who’s going to buy this? What are they going to do with it? And where’s it going to go? You see a lot of artists that get hung up on, “it’s fun to me”. It’d be the designers having empathy for the customer and solving their problems 

BrandiSea: [00:21:16] And a bit of strategy behind that. 

Mark Brickey: [00:21:18] For sure. 

BrandiSea: [00:21:18] So, how did you go about figuring out, like–was it just testing? Like, here, I’m going to make this print of this thing and see if it goes. If it doesn’t, we’ll do something else. 

Mark Brickey: [00:21:27] The audience is always your business partner. I hate the word fans. I never fucking use it. Uh, I don’t like followers. It’s listeners and its customers. They’re people that are supporting you.

And when I can, I really try to think of all of those people as a business partner. So you work hard on something, it falls a little bit flat. And you listened to people and you understand where, where did this go wrong? What kind of feedback did I get at the time? Uh, we were doing a lot of craft fairs, artists markets and stuff like that.

I think in the last year, I did something like 55 days of vending and yeah, I had it down to a system. But, um, the, the idea was listen to people. Don’t write off people’s idea because this is a unique situation where it’s not like everybody in the company’s filtering through Rick, and you don’t know if Rick actually showed it to the bosses of the client.

You know, that–that creative director that doesn’t ever let Coca-Cola see your work if they don’t like it. Um, so it was a great privilege to get the feedback from, you know, God’s mouth to your ears and to really lean in that. 

You know, let people dictate you or where you want to go. But there’s always a nice vendor grab of where their interest overlaps yours and in the middle, that’s the space that you go into. 

BrandiSea: [00:22:41] So what for–for people that maybe are out there–so, I mean, I’m in this space where I’m in the process of developing my own products, but maybe for people out there that don’t really have a desire to produce a product. Maybe they–they produce digital, are only online for no reason. Not, like, they don’t want to sell prints, they don’t want to do that. How do they go about, sort of, finding that–that happy space in the Venn diagram and in a space like that and figuring out, well, I don’t know who wants to see this.

Mark Brickey: [00:23:13] I mean, here’s the thing. You’re going to–you’re going to have to make money at whatever you do to keep doing it. That’s just one of the ugly truths of creativity, and this is something I really like to try to lean on people. Because you’re creative, your passion is above profitability. That’s both a blessing and a curse. But you have to keep in mind that money’s greatest value isn’t the things that you buy or the peace of mind that comes with it.

Money’s greatest value is it buys you freedom. It buys you more time to make more stuff. So if you are a digital artist, you’re like, I don’t want to pack envelopes. I don’t want to do any of these things. You’ve got to find a way to make money and to build an audience. So maybe you get into teaching or you sell digital assets.

My friend Andrew, who owns truegrittexturesupply.com/aid coupon code. Snuck it in. I advertised on your show. 

BrandiSea: [00:24:06] Hey, it’s okay. We’re friends now, right? 

Mark Brickey: [00:24:09] Yeah, absolutely we are. Uh, but you know, he was able to make a really successful business also off of selling a digital asset. So, I mean, what you really need to do is you need to take a walkabout and think.

What am I doing that people are responding to? What am I doing that makes me uniquely me? Then go a step further. How is it possible to make money doing that? And if you try really hard, there’s probably some sort of way to figure that out. It’s not easy, but the more unique that path is–a lot of soul searching. Dude, Adventures in Design has created the happiest moments in my life as well as the most suicidal moments in my life. 

BrandiSea: [00:24:50] Yeah. I mean, I feel like that’s just–that–I don’t–I mean–I’m a–I’ve been a creative all my life and I feel like those–the highs are very high and the lows can be very low because it is such a personal–being creative is, is like, it’s not just, like, a job you do.

It’s not like I go out and fix cars all day and that’s not, like, in my being, it’s not in my soul. Whereas if someone–if someone doesn’t value something that you put out there, it’s like. That’s so personal. 

Mark Brickey: [00:25:16] It comes from us. It comes from in the thine, you know. And I love pregnant teenager TV shows. I watch all of them on its spectrum.

BrandiSea: [00:25:23] I’ve heard this on your podcast. 

Mark Brickey: [00:25:26] Oh, I love all of them. And every time I see the baby come out of the womb, I’m like– it’s like every time I put out a podcast. I hold it on my chest covered in the afterbirth. I’m like, look at you. You’re going to go out and change the world. I they never do. 

BrandiSea: [00:25:39] Well, you never know. They might change the world. You might encourage that. 

I mean, that’s sort of, you know, that’s–that’s part of why I do a podcast is to encourage people to get out. And my platform is around finding everyday inspiration and getting out from behind the computer and doing something different to find your unique voice. Because everyone’s looking at everyone else’s work and it just becomes this gross homogeny of everyone looks like everyone.

And then no one values what we do. And it’s kind of, like, this ugly cycle because of that. So, um, I totally get that. Every time I put out something new, it’s like, Oh my gosh, you’re so beautiful. And then it’s out. And I’m like, Oh no, maybe you’re that ugly baby. 

Mark Brickey: [00:26:18] Oh, all of my kids are ugly babies. But they’re beautiful and precious in the very beginning, that new baby smell. All the designs have all the fresh, fresh smells.

BrandiSea: [00:26:27] So, challenging ourselves and putting our work out there so that it brings our own personality. Um, maybe someone is really scared of, like, pursuing their own things and they have–they are–they are very reliant on that client work. You know–I know that–I know the theory of the overlap technique and, you know, do what you love on the side until you can do it forever.

But how–how would you speak to someone that maybe is just afraid of even that overlap technique. Of even just, like, stepping off to the side and going, I think I really kind of want to do this. And how can that maybe also secondarily add to your client work that you do? 

Mark Brickey: [00:27:04] You know, the fear factor is huge for a lot of creatives. And you and I have just joked that, you know, that it’s something that comes from inside of us. But it really is. Because if you’re– 

BrandiSea: [00:27:13] No joke.

Mark Brickey: [00:27:14] No. I mean, if you’re a guy that sells snow tires, snow tires show up on the back of a truck, you pay 10 for them, you try to sell them for 65 and that’s your business model. It’s what your dad did. It’s what your grandfather did. And it’s what you hope that your son and daughter will do. So when you’re creating andit comes from  inside of you, that is that–there’s that little wedge there where many of us could take an advantage of. So this is what I try to tell people when I work with people one on one. 

In 2020, it doesn’t matter how good your work is anymore. There’s a lot of people that are subpar at the creative part, but they’re really good at telling that story.

Story is more important than anything because of the advent of social media and the way that we’re connected. So what I would encourage somebody to do that is  low on self confidence is, don’t show up at the finish line and say, “I made this thing, guys, do you like it?” Don’t do that. Show up at the beginning and say, “I’m going to try to make something, but I’m a little bit scared.” And take people on the journey with you because how am I going to know your victorie? How am I going to know how to celebrate your big win if I don’t know what the stakes are? And too many people are creating in a vacuum, creating in privacy, and they just keep showing us the finish line. And when you just show up everyday and say, finish line, finish line, finish line. It’s like, I don’t know what the stakes are here.

So if you take somebody on the journey with you, one, you’re going to find more people that are on the same journey. You’re going to find encouragement each and every step along the way, and you’re going to start to build a community. So your self confidence will slowly build as you understand, I’ve got to put in an extra four hours tonight after I put the kids to bed because I told at @Ricky77 and at @fuckrickfrommarketing that it’s going to be up there tomorrow and I have to post this tomorrow. 

BrandiSea: [00:29:04] Right. The power of community is so huge. And, and the story of–you know, anyone would want to watch a movie about somebody who’s terrified of climbing mount Everest, but finds friends along the way who can help him do it.

And that’s–that’s exactly–that’s exactly where it is. And you know, I work by myself a lot in my office, but I make an extra effort to be involved with creative community outside of my–you know, whether I’m president of the AIG, a chapter here. I’m also involved in various other creative groups, creative mornings and all the things, because you cannot survive in this–in this creative world alone.

Mark Brickey: [00:29:40] And the more people that you meet, the more that you realize that you’re not as different in your insecurities as you think you are. Like, you know, even though the human face is bizarre, that it’s twitched a little bit, that we all have the same features, but look incredibly different. It’s a real sort of mind fuck. Because ultimately there are only so many types of people and there’s so many spaces where we all overlap.

So as somebody who’s created content now, you know, thousands of hours of content, I really just lean on, “if I’m intrigued by it, if I’m feeling it, if I think it’s funny, if I think it’s scary, if I think it’s intriguing”, other people will too. And I think that, um, 

BrandiSea: [00:30:23] In the specific lies the universal. 

Mark Brickey: [00:30:25] Yeah. I mean, I think that when you get out there, you start to realize that you’re not the only one that has these problems.

You’re not the only one that doesn’t know what to charge. You’re not the only one that thinks your art looks dumb. You’re not the only one that thinks you look fat. You know what I mean? Like there’s, there’s a more–and in that community–I mean, we are packed animals and that kind of helps bring out this animalistic instinct and use it to like, okay, at least I’m not the only one here who feels dumb.

And that’s encouragement to self confidence–in your dumbness to move forward. 

BrandiSea: [00:30:53] We all just want to feel dumb together. 

Mark Brickey: [00:30:55] That’s it. That’s–it always made me feel good. 

BrandiSea: [00:30:58] So at this point, how has, kind of, stepping away from physical, tangible design work affected your, your overall creative output on the podcast?

Mark Brickey: [00:31:09] Well, I’m more creative than ever because, um, I don’t have the restraints that most creatives have. I’m lucky enough that I have a community of loyal listeners that are also supporters. To where I don’t have to worry about money anymore. I’m not rich. I just don’t have to worry about money. This is just what’s comfortable. It’s fucking fantastic.

I’m comfortable and I just get to create what I want to create. And so, when I was making physical goods, there’s a couple of pressure points and cost of goods. So there’s cashflow. And then there’s the downtime of setting up shop to sell these goods or to pack these goods. So because I have digital distribution, I’ve started doing this new thing with the circle of trust.

It’s called Mark Brickey Hits Record. And sometimes, when I just want to talk about something, I stop everything else, I hit record, I talk to my audience. If it’s 10 minutes, it’s 10 minutes. If it’s an hour, it’s an hour. 

BrandiSea: [00:32:08] It’s like breaking the fourth wall. 

Mark Brickey: [00:32:10] No. No theme song. No ads. I just literally hit record and I upload it within minutes of being done. And I walk away from that.

BrandiSea: [00:32:20] I kind of love that idea. 

Mark Brickey: [00:32:21] It’s been so fun because–

BrandiSea: [00:32:22] I may have to steal that idea. 

Mark Brickey: [00:32:24] Do it! Because what it does is I’ve proven to everybody that I can do great ad reads, and I’ve proven to everybody that I can do what I think are some of the best interviews, but that all takes a level of work that sometimes can dampen that creative spirit.

So, literally, just being able to hit record and push it out is amazing. I’ve turned my, um, home office into a video production studio. I have a green room. I have five lights around me. I have two cameras staring at me right now. The idea is to get better at that. So when something happens, I can hit record and immediately be in a professional space.

I find that the more I create, the more I’m intrigued to do more. And I keep, one by one, eroding away all these barriers that used to exist in my career. Where I’m now in a constant state of creative flow, and I absolutely love it. 

So physical goods, customers, like everything I’ve gotten rid of is–employees. I don’t have an assistant anymore. Like, everything I get rid of is just to put me closer to the artwork. Because every time I’ve ever tried to grow, the major thing that has happened is I’ve grown away from creativity and things have gotten in between me and my production. So I’m the happiest I’ve ever been because I’m the most productive I’ve ever been.

BrandiSea: [00:33:41] So what part–so if you’re–if you feel like you’re in a constant state of creative flow, do you feel like you are also in a constant state of feeling inspired? Are you just constantly like, where’s my my stuff to record? I have an idea. 

Mark Brickey: [00:33:54] I love the world. 

I could cry right now. I could seriously cry right now on command because I love life so much and I am inspired by every single day of it.

And, uh, you know. Sometimes I have a frown and I’m covered in tattoos and I’m like a six foot tall guy with a big beard, but I cry all the time. And it’s not because somebody did something mean to me. I cry because there’s so much love in my heart that somehow or another, it knows how to flow out of my eyeballs and, and I don’t understand people who aren’t inspired.

When people are like, how do I get inspired? I’m like, brother, you’re living in a different world than me because there’s only so much time on planet earth and I would love to live this life 1000 times and each time I would be somebody else. 

I’d love to just be–I’d love to be a cop once. Like, how fun would it be to be just a cop once in your life? Have the cool mustache, drive the car. Like, I love authority. I love being, sort of, an asshole to people. Like, just being a cop would be awesome. 

But I’ll never get to be a cop in this life. So, inspiration is all around me and, like many things, the more you open your heart and the mind to it, the more that you catch.

BrandiSea: [00:35:11] Yeah. Having the mindset of being awake and aware has, I mean, it’s kind of always been a part of who I am as a creative. I’ve always been able to find inspiration in virtually anything. But I have–I’ve–I’ve found that a lot of people struggle with that and it’s–and it has become a point of–of teaching for me to be like, here’s, here’s some weird logistical thing to how you actually can open your eyes to the world around you.

But it, I feel that, like, I’m, I’m the opposite of that. I’m not a crier. Like, I feel things very deeply, but I don’t outwardly–I don’t outwardly express things like that, but I feel so much inspiration. Um, I know that you are a Disney themed. I don’t know what it’s– 

Mark Brickey: [00:35:53] You wanna talk about crying! 

BrandiSea: [00:35:54] I know. I’m going to go there.

So, in this space of inspiration and Disney–like, so my  family and — first question, um, I always want to ask people, Disneyland or Disney World for you? 

Mark Brickey: [00:36:08] I’ve been to  Disneyland over 500 times, I haven’t been to Disney world as a super fan, so–

BrandiSea: [00:36:14] Okay. 

Mark Brickey: [00:36:15] Always, always Walt’s original kingdom over the duplicate. 

BrandiSea: [00:36:19] Cause he–cause his soul is there.

So we, my family and I are going to Disney. I’ve been to Disneyland multiple times, but we’re going to Disney World with the kiddos this summer. But I’ve just been, like, already starting to prep my mind for, like, the inspiration that’s going to happen there. Where like, do you have–do you have sort of like a mantra?

Do you have a process of how you go through Disney? Do you–do you go there sometimes to be inspired? Do you go there sometimes not, you know, just wanting to have fun and then you get inspired? Where does, where does all of this, this intense love come from for you? 

Mark Brickey: [00:36:54] Okay, so, we’re going to make this as quick as possible cause this’ll become a second episode.

BrandiSea: [00:37:01] Do it as quick as you can, cause I know we’re also on a time crunch because Disney 

Mark Brickey: [00:37:04] Because, yeah, I have a thing to go to there today. Okay. So, this is how it works out. Um, we’ll say my childhood wasn’t exactly perfect and that has put me in a constant state of having a childlike enthusiasm for the world around me.

And I’m very, very young at heart. So the fact that I now live a 30 minute drive from Disneyland is something that I cherish. And I go to the park at least once a week, sometimes by myself, sometimes with friends. I’ve–I’ve met friends through the park and there is a true community at Disneyland and I love going there with my loved ones, and it’s just such a great thing.

Now, that being said, Disneyland is a great metaphor for the world around you. Even if you’re a non Disney person who’s listening in, shame on you. 

Shame on you. 

If you go through the world looking for all the bad things, you’ll find all the bad things. You can go to Disneyland obsessed on the lines and the pricing and the marketing.

All of that will just implode and you’ll find more of what you’re looking for. But if you go there looking at the fact that this is a place that’s designed as complete escapism, for kids to see that everything that they think is real is actually real, for people that get together in a way that they normally get together. And for everybody to just to be in a better mood than what they normally are, the best version of themselves. 

BrandiSea: [00:38:26] So I have to tell you, like, a really tiny story about my daughter,. The first time–the first time we took her to Disney, she was, um, not quite five years old. And she was all into Tinkerbell and the fairies, that whole world that they had. 

Mark Brickey: [00:38:39] Oh yeah. That seduces little girls. 

BrandiSea: [00:38:41] Oh my gosh.

And so, we took her to meet, um, we took her to meet Tinkerbell and Verida? I don’t remember her name anymore. The one that wears purple. And all of the–all of the fairies. And you know, you never really know how much you, the kids think is real or not. So you’re just like, we’re going to pretend like all this is real or whatever and we’re just going to keep going.

And so we took her to meet the fairies, and as soon as we walked out from like the fairy underground thing that they have. She says, ” See mommy, I told you fairies were real.” And I probably did cry because it was like, Oh my gosh. She believes. She believes in fairies. They live. I don’t know that. That does make me think of what–it’s kind of just like what you were saying.

If you go in with this–this magical outlook, it will be magical. 

Mark Brickey: [00:39:24] It’s a lot like Christmas in that, you know, as adults. We, we believe in these things so that it enriches the lives of our, our children. And this purity that you’re given before the world takes it away from you. And so, I know that Mickey mouse is probably a 22 year old Asian girl, cause that’s all that would fit in that suit.

But when I’m there, I go, Holy shit, that’s Mickey mouse. And he just waved at me and we all believe that. And our excitement spills over to the young ones. That being said, from a designer’s perspective, it’s really amazing to see what unlimited budget, unlimited research and design and development can do for imagination and why.

I would say Disneyland is superior over all the other parks is that it’s the original one. It’s the only one that Walt ever went to. And it sits on an incredibly small plot of land. So a lot like New York city, everything is doing a lot of heavy lifting at Disneyland, and it’s that design within restraint designed within restriction is where you really are challenged to do your best work.

So the fact that you can’t see land from land, or you can never see the city of Anaheim outside of the Gates, there’s a lot of. Um, and, um, environmental design magic that’s happening. So if you’re open to these things, you’ll see these things and you’ll enjoy them. Um, that being said, it’s also just nice to have a place that, in your heart, you’ve decided is a place of purity.

And when you go there, I don’t curse. I don’t swear. I’m, yes ma’am. No, no, sir. I make space for others. I try to be a true citizen of Disneyland even though I still don’t have the fucking button. 

BrandiSea: [00:41:05] Well, I love–I constantly tell people that design in a box ends up way better than design with no boundaries because you, you are forced to be more creative when you have a boundary and then you can kind of push on the boundary and pushing the boundary.

But if you don’t know where the boundary is, how can you push on it? And so I love that– I love that you’ve brought, kind of, Disney into that space and I will definitely be thinking about that when I go. 

Mark Brickey: [00:41:35] Well, you know, the thing is, is that all of us decided to do commercial art. And you know, like, even though I’m not making a physical product– 

BrandiSea: [00:41:42] That sounds so dirty. Commercial art. 

Mark Brickey: [00:41:44] But it’s not because commercial art is really about using your creativity for problem solving.

Because if you just want to really be vain and do whatever you want to do, you could go to an art gallery and do visual masturbation where it’s just for you. It’s a sport for one. And if people like it, they’ll support it, if they don’t, fuck them. But if you really want to engage with people and do problem solving and get to meet people and think about customers and problems that are bigger than you while solving your own creative problems while also solving the problems of the finances of it all. It’s just such a fun challenge. And video games that are easy to beat are games that we play once and we walk away from the game. What keeps you intrigued is a game that you keep playing, and that’s the game of creativity.

BrandiSea: [00:42:27] I agree. Yeah. I think that story and strategy and using both sides of your brain is the ultimate creative exercise for sure. You know, if you’re just on the right side and you’re just creating, like you said, just creating art for you all day long, like, that doesn’t benefit anybody. But then if you’re on the other side and it’s all about the analytics and all about the numbers, then there’s no fun there either.

And that’s–I love that design can be that perfect marriage of like math, brain, and art brained. And it kinda merges so well. So I feel like we could talk for a lot longer. But I’m going to give you a break today and stop talking. Your ear off. 

Mark Brickey: [00:43:02] Conversation with me never stops. There’s always a conversation happening. Just various people walk in and out of it all day long. So– 

BrandiSea: [00:43:09] Ypu’re lie, “I’m just sitting here.”  

Mark Brickey: [00:43:12] You asked me to come on and if I could say one thing to your audience–if you’re not doing any work for you. If you’re not doing any personal work for you, you’re really missing out on one of the greatest rewards of your talents.

And also, if you’re not showing the world what you want to really be doing, there’s probably no way that you’re ever going to get hired to do it. So I put this challenge out to people all the time. If you’re not doing what you want to be doing at this point in your life, I hate to be the one to tell it to you, but I’ll proudly do it.

You’re probably never going to do it so–

BrandiSea: [00:43:47] Yeah. You got to show the work you want to get. 

Mark Brickey: [00:43:49] Absolutely. So there’s, there’s that to think about. Like, are you really auditioning for the life and the job and the person that you want to be right now? Because if you’re not, it’s not going to happen. You know, Tinkerbell only existed to these children, not to us adults.

BrandiSea: [00:44:03] Well, thank you so much for being here. Maybe we can have more chats in the future and– 

Mark Brickey: [00:44:08] 100%. Let’s do this again. 

BrandiSea: [00:44:09] Thanks so much, Mark. We’ll talk soon. 

Thank you for 

Mark Brickey: [00:44:11] having me.

BrandiSea: [00:44:41] All right, so that was–that was Mark. What did you think about–what did you think about that conversation? 

Julie: [00:44:47] That was great. I feel like he’s just, maybe exuberant is a good word for him?  Like, he just seems so, like, energized and obviously, like, he was talking, like, he just loves life and I think that’s really cool. But he had a lot of really great things to say. 

BrandiSea: [00:45:03] So I’ve listened to his–I’ve listened to his podcast before. And I told Kenny, my husband, he sort of reminds me of the Joe Rogan of, like, the creative podcast world. Which is great, cause there’s, you know, he’s very different. His style and he’s very conversational, which is a lot of fun.

It definitely went in a lot of directions that I wasn’t expecting, but they were all so good. 

Julie: [00:45:24] They really were. 

BrandiSea: [00:45:25] I think one of the ones that really stuck out to me was how he, kind of–he kind of brought–he kept, like, coming back to Disney so much. Which makes total sense. He also has, like, another podcast that’s called  Disneyland for Designers, which is, like, incredible.

Julie: [00:45:42] That’s amazing. 

BrandiSea: [00:45:43] I love that he, he was so passionate about doing work that you love. 

Julie: [00:45:48] Yes. I loved how he said money, which obviously is ,like, why we’re doing all of this. That money gives you freedom. It’s not just, like, Oh, get some money and then you’re rich or whatever. It’s about, like, when you have money coming in, you can do the things that you love and it gives you the freedom to work for who you want to or not work for anyone at all. Which is what he does, which is so cool.

BrandiSea: [00:46:13] Which is also interesting in–this literally just occurred to me in the, sort of, the scheme of the American dream is, like–the reason that we have freedom here is, you know–you kind of, like, think about the American dream being, like, coming and making money. But how does that equal, like, freedom? And this sort of, like–that’s how, because when you have money, you have choices and you can, you can kind of pursue the things that you love a little bit more.

Um, it definitely made me think a little bit more about, “okay, how can I, sort of, try to get to this place a little bit more where I’m actually creating more of what I love for the people who love it?” And I know how to create things that I love. Figuring out how to do it for the people who love it is a little more challenging. 

Julie: [00:47:02] Yeah. No. And we talked about this on my little, like, intro, um, episode at the very beginning of the season of, like, kind of my journey of figuring out what I like to do. And did it. And that’s what it has brought me to being an adventure elopment photographer. Because, um, you know, first it started with doing all kinds of photography and then knowing, “Oh, I just wanted to do weddings”.

And then narrowing it down from there of, like, looking at a wedding day and being like, “I really get super bored at receptions. And I think a lot of the things that they do, the traditions are really dumb.” And I just really loved spending time with the couples and I really loved doing it outdoors. And so, like, just doing work and figuring out what it is that you like. Then you can narrow it down and say, like, how can I get rid of these things that I don’t really like? 

BrandiSea: [00:47:50] How can you sort of weed those out? 

Julie: [00:47:51] Yeah. And you’ll feel so much more fulfilled and not be so burnt out and it’s just better for everybody. 

BrandiSea: [00:47:58] Yeah. The song that I played this week talks about, um, the line is “never for money, always for love”.

And I’ve been listening to the song for a long time, but. He definitely was, was sort of like, this is the epitome of that. It’s like, you need money, but don’t do it for the money. It’s like, if you, if you do it for love, the money will come. Like, not always, but you know also when you’re doing things that you’re passionate about and people can see that you have a talent in that area, they will also be drawn to you.

So. The idea is do what you love and the people that also love that will be drawn to you and your style or whatever it is you do. So it was a really fun interview and I think that he has a lot, he has a lot of really interesting insights and–

Julie: [00:48:47] There’s so many great little nuggets that I pulled out of there that I was like, yeah, this is awesome. So it’s definitely worth–

BrandiSea: [00:48:54] What was, what was one that we haven’t talked about that you pulled out? 

Julie: [00:48:58] I love that he said that, um, the story is more important than just, like, how good you are as an artist. Which is actually something I feel like I’ve learned over the last year of, like, I think I kind of began last year of looking at other people’s photography and being, like, man, am I as good as them?

Like, am I getting his Epic of shots out in the wild? And then, um, yeah. Somebody who’s kind of, like, mentored me through this whole adventure elopement thing was like, I mean, yeah, I’d be a good photographer, but it’s not so much about that. It’s more about the experience you’re giving your clients and their story and your story and all that.

Um, you also know I’m a really big fan of Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller’s. So, um, and that really weaves into it too. So I, I loved that. And it’s kind of, like, a freeing feeling of, like, yeah, I need to be a good artist, but, um, that’s not where, like, my worth is. And that’s not, like, the only thing that matters.

Like, there’s a lot more that matters even beyond just yourself too. It’s just the story of the people that you’re working with or serving. 

BrandiSea: [00:50:08] Yeah. I loved, um, I think the number one thing that I really–I say number one, I don’t know. I don’t remember all the things. The thing that’s coming to mind at the moment is how he was talking about the the artist versus the designer and the artist that just creates for themselves and their own ego and the designer that creates a story and creates something that’s going to be meaningful for other people.

And I think that that’s–there’s a lot of confusion and there’s a lot of blurred lines in that area, especially when it comes to design. Because we are, we are artists and we are also left brain logical thinkers. And often, we take the side of, like, our feelings and our well, but I like it. Okay, but that doesn’t mean that everyone else will like it, and you can’t be offended if they don’t.

So he had a lot of really cool things to say. And, um, I hope you guys will check out his podcast. He definitely, like, threw in a couple of his own plugs, which is totally fine and really hilarious. You can find links to all of his stuff in the show notes. And, uh. Yeah. So thanks to Mark for the great interview. 

Again, that was, This Must Be the Place by the band Sure Sure.

You can find this song and all the inspiring music we share on our music from Design Speaks playlist on Spotify. 

All right, everybody, that’s our episode for today. If you’d like to support Design Speaks, you can do so by sharing this podcast with a friend or head over to our Patrion Page at patrion.com/designspeaks.

Design Speaks is produced by Kenneth Kniffin and Dakota Cook and me, Brandi Sea. Audio production by Kenneth Kniffin. Thanks to Colin from Vesperteen for our theme music. You can find Vesperteen on Apple music and Spotify. Design Speaks is a project of Brandi Sea designs. It is recorded and produced in the shadow of the watermelon, pink Sandia Mountains near Albuquerque, New Mexico.

You can leave us a note on Instagram @designspeakspodcast, and you can find all current and past episodes at design speakpodcast.com. Thanks again for listening. Until next time…