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Michelle: 00:03 You’re on your way to being Sean Wes.

Brandi: 00:05 No, I just want to be me.

Michelle: 00:07 Just be you, but like

Brandi: 00:09 A little more organized like Sean Wes.

Intro dude: 00:12 Welcome to Design Speaks. This lovely podcast is brought to you by a graphic design geek and a regular human being. A.K.A a non-designer. We’re here to chat about music, pop culture, cool places or basically whatever we feel is relevant.

Brandi: 00:29 Hey guys, I’m Brandi Sea

Michelle: 00:31 And I’m Michelle

Brandi: 00:32 And you’re listening to episode 83 of Design Speaks.

Michelle: 00:35 And on this episode we will be talking about or starting a brand new series on. Brandi’s design process here is episode

Brandi: 00:45 Part one.

Michelle: 00:46 Part one, yeah. And what episode is it again?

Brandi: 00:48 Episode 83.

Michelle: 00:50 83!

Brandi: 00:51 83 part one of five. I think.

Michelle: 00:55 I’m really. We think.

Brandi: 00:57 It might be six, but I’m, I’m really gonna try.

Michelle: 01:01 Yeah, we’ll see. We’ll see. You know, let’s play it by ear. Let’s play it by ear.

Brandi: 01:04 That’s what we always do. We’ll play it by the clock. That’s what’s happening

Michelle: 01:07 Play it by the clock. Yeah, that’s good.

Brandi: 01:11 So yeah, we’re not really going to do like the normal, like pre show banter as much.

Michelle: 01:16 As much. Keep it to a minimum.

Brandi: 01:18 This week my week was basically honestly planning for this series.

Michelle: 01:22 Which has been really exciting to watch.

Brandi: 01:25 Yeah, and also, uh, being mad crazy about Scott Belsky book, which we will talk about in episode 85. Um, and that’s, that’s basically been it.

Michelle: 01:37 Have any songs.

Brandi: 01:38 Yes, I do. I do, I do. So this, uh, this week my song is by Vampire Weekend and you have the phone so I don’t remember what it’s called.

Michelle: 01:49 It’s called Harmony Hall.

Brandi: 01:51 Harmony Hall.

Michelle: 01:51 They just released a brand new album. So this is off of it.

Brandi: 01:54 Yeah. So, um, here’s the song and I will talk about it after it plays.

Brandi: 03:16 First off, let me say that the artwork for this, I’m just not a fan of really weird. It’s just like white with a green snake on it and it doesn’t feel as empire weekend to me.

Michelle: 03:27 Man.

Brandi: 03:28 Even visually.

Michelle: 03:29 Yeah visually, it sounds like Vampire Weekend.

Brandi: 03:31 Yes it is. It obviously is.

Michelle: 03:33 It sounded like super, like Bahama-y.

Brandi: 03:37 A little bit. Yeah.

Michelle: 03:38 Oh no! It started out, it started at like ambient, like, and I’m like cerebral

Brandi: 03:44 Thought provoking.

Michelle: 03:44 Yes. And then it got Super Bahama-y. Like normal vampire weekend. Which I like.

Brandi: 03:49 Yeah, I loved it. I liked the talk of like the seasons and I like where he says, I thought I was free of questioning, basically but there’s always these questions that come up.

Michelle: 03:58 Yep.

Brandi: 03:58 And um, so that’s just resonated with me a lot lately and uh, that’s, that’s my song.

Michelle: 04:04 I like it.

Brandi: 04:05 So we have a lot to talk about. So we’re just gonna

Michelle: 04:07 Get right to it.

Brandi: 04:07 We’re going to get to it.

Michelle: 04:08 Get right to it. As a creative person. A creative who hasn’t gone to school for this, honestly, um, I have always felt pretty ill-equipped for doing what I’m able to do, which we will actually talk about in an interview with Scott Belsky a little bit in a few weeks. Um, but I felt pretty ill-equipped to do what I do. And so I’ve been really thankful for this podcast because I’m on a journey of learning as well as everyone else who’s listening and I’m sure you’re learning as well.

Brandi: 04:37 Yeah, creative never stop learning.

Michelle: 04:38 Right? But I’m learning a lot from you and so this is a series, I’ve been really wanting to do for

Brandi: 04:45 Since two years.

Michelle: 04:46 Gosh, two years since the beginning because I think your process is one necessary and to very interesting. And I’ve learned a lot about the bits and pieces of your process. But I’d like to go. I’d like to go into it in chronological order.

Brandi: 04:58 In-depth.

Michelle: 04:59 In-depth.

Brandi: 05:00 Yeah.

Michelle: 05:00 So that’s the start of today. And I’m really excited.

Brandi: 05:03 First of all, I think everybody has a process, um, which is good and bad. The good part of it is that people understand what a process is and why. Um like, why they do their own process. But the bad part of it is that when I’m trying to explain, and I’m just going to be egotistically transparent here, I think my process for getting from the beginning of, of the project to the end is the best process. And obviously I’m biased, but this is my podcast.

Michelle: 05:35 Because your, you.

Brandi: 05:37 So, um, when I’ve tried to teach this process to people in workshops and stuff, they’re inevitable, there’s the people are like, oh my gosh, this changed my life. And other people that are like, yeah, I kind of already have something that sort of looks like this already. And I’m like, okay, but, but do you actually do it like this?

Michelle: 05:55 Yeah, you have to flush it out.

Brandi: 05:57 No, I do this thing, I have a process so everybody has a process because we all do things in a certain order. Like that’s all a process is doing something in order. But, but this process specifically is really unique in the way that I use. Um, basically vocabulary and words to start. Um, so the, I uncovered my process. Um, at one point I think I’ve talked about this, I was having trouble with clients asking me why I charge so much.

Michelle: 06:30 Right. You needed to have a why?

Brandi: 06:31 Yeah. So I needed to have a why. So I had to examine why that was an ended up kind of uncovering the process. It wasn’t like I found it or discovered it, it was already there. I just needed to dig a little under the surface.

Michelle: 06:46 So your process ended up being the like almost it was the why you charge what you charge, but for people who are in the workplace, it’s a little bit like, okay, what is your job description? Why do, why did we hire you? I don’t know about you, but I’ve been asked to write out my job description a few times, like what am I doing right now that like one we could just know and also warns me getting paid what I get paid.

Brandi: 07:10 Why are you worth paper money?

Michelle: 07:11 Why are you. So it’s kind of like that for me, for others.

Brandi: 07:17 So yeah. So that’s kind of where this came from and I wanted to iterate, you know, in a, in a very brief way what I do to, to others that are trying to hire me so they understand all the work that I do and it’s not just like this surface like, but there’s a logo.

Michelle: 07:34 Magic.

Brandi: 07:35 Yeah magic happened.

Michelle: 07:36 I did this in some spare time.

Brandi: 07:37 Right? A process is, and I will say a process, but also my process specifically does relate to these answers, but, um, anytime I do my workshop I have, I’m like this little chart that I have that basically just says why I’m gonna show Michelle.

Michelle: 07:53 Okay, I’m going to show the audience over here. So, ps to the listeners, we’re recording this episode. I’m on video for our Patreon supporters. So you want to see us actually in person recording this, then you can, you can support us and do that. But, um, so the first, the first few reasons are that a process is necessary because it, it gives you more unique concepts. Um, and if you don’t know what a concept is, concept is the driving idea behind the visual communication, um, that gives you a solid design direction. So it gives you the concept behind it and the direction your design will go, um, which are both really crucial things. It keeps you from just like stumbling around in the dark for like a good idea.

Michelle: 08:42 Right?

Brandi: 08:42 You’ve already got it at the beginning.

Michelle: 08:43 You’re not grasping for nothing.

Brandi: 08:45 Right? Exactly. Um, the other one is it gives you, as a person, as a creative, it gives you confidence in the work that you’re doing, cause you’re like, okay, I, I know we’re at like, what I want out of this and I know what I’m doing. So that gives you confidence in your decision making.

Michelle: 09:02 And it also gives you the words to explain to others.

Brandi: 09:05 Exactly!

Michelle: 09:05 Which are so necessary because if you can’t explain or present like why you’re doing something, you sound like a dumb.

Brandi: 09:12 Right? Yeah. And then they don’t trust you.

Michelle: 09:14 Right?

Brandi: 09:14 Um, so you also have better productivity because you know what the goal is, again, not just stumbling around in the dark and in relation to what you said, you actually got ahead a little bit in a good way, but um, you’ll have reasons for your design decisions because you’ve got all these things to back up the decisions that you make so that you can communicate those when they say why did you choose triangles in this, in this logo, in the corner, and you can tell them because you know, triangles are grounding there, solid or whatever. You know, all the things that your design has and um, the last thing, but one of the most important things is that it gives you respect and credibility.

Michelle: 09:52 Ey, there it is.

Brandi: 09:53 So there that is. Um.

Michelle: 09:54 And I think ultimately that’s what, um, if you’re, if you’re a creative a designer in any way, um, that’s what you’re looking for. You’re looking for that respectability and that credibility. Like, Hey, I’m not just messing around here.

Brandi: 10:09 Yeah, I know what I’m doing and here’s why.

Michelle: 10:11 Um so here’s the first step to gaining that.

Brandi: 10:14 Yeah.

Michelle: 10:14 I like it.

Brandi: 10:15 Um, so I’m just going to name all steps.

Michelle: 10:16 Okay.

Brandi: 10:17 Real quick. And then um today, I’ll tell you which ones were in talk about. The first step is client meeting and design brief. Um, second is word map where you find your concepts and elements. A third is research and brainstorm. Fourth is sleep, five is sketch, six is narrowing your options. Seven is executing the design and eight is presenting. So um in this episode, we’re going to cover, uh, the client meeting and the design brief. The client meeting um meeting the client is, can be intimidating if you’re not prepared. So depending on, um, depending on how you meet your clients, um, I either meet my clients in person or over email, um, I’ve yet to have a client where it’s all phone or where it’s, um, like I’ve never done a client over Skype.

Michelle: 11:16 Okay.

Brandi: 11:17 But I know that that’s an option. So basically meeting the client is wherever you meet your client. If that is over email the, you know, it might just look a little differently how, how you interact there, um, if it’s over the phone, but I’m primarily the client meeting is an effort to kind of put them at ease with who you are.

Michelle: 11:37 Okay.

Brandi: 11:37 Um, if it’s in person, um, I usually preface the, uh, the client meeting with the design brief. So, um, this, this step is one of those ones that can kind of flip flop. You can either do the design brief, send it off to them, which is what I do as sort of like a, um, a, a sifter to kind of sift out the serious people. And then if they get back to me then I can meet them in person. Um, there have been times where they’re like, hey, I just want to meet you, um, do I, I don’t really know what I want yet, but I want to talk about it a little bit. And then if that’s the case, you sit down with them, you tell them how you work, what your process looks like, and once you’ve kind of come to the conclusion of what they need from you, I always bring a printed physical copy if I’m meeting them in person and hand them the design brief and explain to them what this design brief has. And then I will fill that with them there. If they can then take it home with me and then get them a price.

Michelle: 12:45 And that’s really, really good that you do that and that others in the world also do that because um, I come from a unique perspective of being able to understand that not everyone knows how things work. And when you get so deep into a career, um, or your profession, whatever you’ve chosen to do with your life, you forget that there’s a start. That there’s a beginning. And not everyone knows what the heck you,

Brandi: 13:18 They’re getting into

Michelle: 13:18 What they’re getting into. For example, just recently I have been given some PSDs to work in if you don’t know, I work at a local church and so, um, I have to create the CCLI slide for that. Um, and I have no idea how to work in photoshop. None. And so I’m learning, but there are some learning curves and I have to go to this guy and I say, Hey, I’m really sorry. I have no idea how to.

Brandi: 13:49 I’m really sorry.

Michelle: 13:51 I have no idea how to write in this. Like I’ve clicked and I created four layers and I don’t know how I created four layers. I think I just clicked and it’s basic, but it’s

Brandi: 14:01 Yeah it’s really important.

Michelle: 14:02 It’s really important that you recognize, you the person who’s creating the process or starting your process, recognize that the person, your client you might be talking to does not know a thing about what you’re going to be doing and what they’re getting themselves into.

Brandi: 14:16 Right. The other part of a client meeting, and I, I do really like to meet them in person if possible. Half my clients are not in person, but um, it gives you the opportunity to, to have conversations with them where you can gauge if they actually value or will value what you do, um, if, if their personality kind of jives and not that, that like if you don’t, if you don’t like feel some sort of magic client vibe, then you’re not going to work well together, but sometimes you can just get a sense of people and

Michelle: 14:48 Do you jive well enough to work together?

Brandi: 14:50 Right? And so, so all of those things are things we’re looking for in the client meeting. The other thing is you want to try and talk about things, um, that will help you get to know them just a little bit like, um, you know, what is, do they have a family like, you know, breakdown, like obviously come up, come at it professionally, but break it down a little bit so that they feel comfortable with you. So I will always say, you know, well I have, I have my kids and I also work from home. And um, that also, not only does it create a little bit of rapport, but at least for me, it gives me the opportunity to let them know that like if I take you on as a client, you are not my only priority. Um like, this is, this is kind of what my life looks like. Um, and not to burden them and say, look, I have all these things. I had my kids at school and all this other stuff.

Michelle: 15:40 But it also gives substance to your guys’, um relationship at that point too.

Brandi: 15:45 Right. And, um, there’s been times where I have even just brought up the fact that I have kids and work from home and I’ve had a client go, oh yeah, no, so me too, and I’m going to be unavailable during these hours. So if I don’t email you back, it’s, I’m not ignoring you or whatever. So it’s just kind of opens up some more communication.

Michelle: 16:02 Priorities.

Brandi: 16:02 Yeah

Michelle: 16:02 That’s good.

Brandi: 16:03 Okay. So the design brief. So this

Michelle: 16:06 Is probably one of my favorite things honestly, because. Yeah, because, um, I like the idea that it’s kind of like an interview. It’s kind of, as you said earlier, um like sifting through people to make sure that they’re not just messing around, um, and it kinda gives them an idea of what they’re getting themselves into, but also it gives you a good idea of what they need with what you need from them.

Brandi: 16:34 Yeah, it gives me basically a full picture. So, um, I’m going to read every single question.

Michelle: 16:40 First, what is a creative brief?

Brandi: 16:42 Okay, so I call it, I call it a design. I call mine a design brief. Um, there’s low, I have a design brief and a logo brief.

Michelle: 16:49 Okay.

Brandi: 16:50 Um, there’s some people call them creative briefs I call mine specifically design because the questions that I’m asking are for the design. Um, and um, it just seems, it just seemed obvious to me, um, the questions change when it’s a logo brief because there are different things involved in a brand. Um, so the one I’m going to read is the design brief and it is basically a series of questions that’ll inform and guide the direction of the design and create a clear objective for reference throughout the whole project.

Michelle: 17:23 Now when people are creating this for themselves, should they stick to creative or design brief or can they be playful with their names for it or maybe convoluted?

Brandi: 17:32 Yeah, I think, I think whatever, whatever you think is going to be the most straightforward.

Michelle: 17:36 Okay.

Brandi: 17:37 Because I changed it to design and logo because the word creative is a little bit like what is that?

Michelle: 17:44 So it’s a bit more focused.

Brandi: 17:45 Yeah, it’s more focused.

Michelle: 17:46 Which is okay.

Brandi: 17:47 And the questions that I have right now have basically been adapted over the last 13, 14 years, um, every, every year. So I take a look back at them and kind of go, is there a better way I can ask this question or can I take one of these questions down and have this still be effective? Um, I want it to constantly be kind of morphing into the goals that I have for myself as a creator and a designer and the clients that I take.

Michelle: 18:14 And constantly moving forward.

Brandi: 18:15 Yeah. And constantly like just a growing. So the first bit is just like really basic, but it’s a and I, I say complete all fields where possible slash applicable, um, because sometimes they just don’t apply company name.

Michelle: 18:32 Okay. Obvious.

Brandi: 18:33 Yeah. Project contact.

Michelle: 18:35 And those two are like, *you must answer this before moving on.

Brandi: 18:39 Right, and I, I put that specifically. I used to just have like info, but then it was like, okay, I need to know who’s actually going to be the contact person.

Michelle: 18:49 Yeah.

Brandi: 18:49 Because it might not be the person I’m meeting with.

Michelle: 18:52 Which is really hard, has it happened?

Brandi: 18:55 It’s happened. Not very often, but it has happened.

Michelle: 18:57 Okay.

Brandi: 18:58 So name, email, phone, preferred method of communication.

Michelle: 19:02 Good.

Brandi: 19:03 So do you want me to call you? Would you prefer if I email you? Do you like texting?

Michelle: 19:07 I was going to say, do you do text?

Brandi: 19:08 Yeah. So that, that a lot of these questions are to eliminate friction later in the, in the process.

Michelle: 19:14 Totally.

Brandi: 19:14 Project description. So this is whatever they want. This is a, we’ll just, let’s go with the book cover for this. We’ll pretend like this is a book cover. This one I’m looking at is empty, so I’m just going to wing it. The next one is background slash history of your company and a short description of the services your company provides.

Michelle: 19:34 Okay.

Brandi: 19:35 So if, if this is a book cover, it would be a short description of the book.

Michelle: 19:39 Right?

Brandi: 19:39 What’s the book about? Basically? Um, and I, I leave, I send this out digitally so they. And it’s a fillable pdf so they can type it in or they can print it out. The funny thing is I send people the, a fillable digital pdf and half, probably more than half the time they print it out, fill it out by hand, scan and send it back to me.

Michelle: 20:01 Have you ever tried to fill out those pdf?

Brandi: 20:03 Yeah.

Michelle: 20:04 They are. They do not work for me. I am a little ill-equipped in the computer side of things, but every time I click I’m like that’s the line! What is going on?

Brandi: 20:16 Then that’s their fault because when you create them you have to make the box.

Michelle: 20:19 Oh, so it is their fault. It’s not me.

Brandi: 20:21 You have to make the box and how, how big it is.

Michelle: 20:24 It drives me insane.

Brandi: 20:25 Unless like you have, unless there was like some weird, like you have an old super old version or you don’t have adobe acrobat and you’re using some other converter or something, which isn’t the case, but um, so the next one is who are your competitors?

Michelle: 20:38 Good.

Brandi: 20:38 And list their websites if possible. This is part of my research and especially, you know, in creating something like a brand, this is even more so important because I want to make sure that your, your look for a book cover for a logo, for whatever sets you apart from your competition in every possible way, but also doesn’t inadvertently plagiarize without, without me knowing it. So I want to take a look at, at the realm that, or your product or your service exists and make sure that we’re not stepping on anybody’s toes.

Michelle: 21:16 That’s good. I like that integrity.

Brandi: 21:18 Plus it also forces them to go, oh, I have competitors.

Michelle: 21:22 Like, no, it’s just me.

Brandi: 21:23 Yeah. Nope, I’m the best. It’s just me. Um, and the next one is, in what ways do you differ from your competition? So it, it helps them.

Michelle: 21:33 Why are you unique?

Brandi: 21:34 What’s special about you even in this world of other authors or whatever.

Michelle: 21:40 Right?

Brandi: 21:40 Um, the next one, are you updating your promotional materials or do you want completely new materials? So maybe it’s someone that’s doing a reprint of their book and they already have it, a book and they’ve already done this. They just want a new cover. That would be an update if it’s the same thing goes for a logo. This question is similar. It’s like are you a brand new company and you have zero branding or are you doing an update of your logo because it’s been 20 years?

Michelle: 22:10 Which one’s harder for you?

Brandi: 22:12 Um

Michelle: 22:13 Or take, I wouldn’t say harder but takes more work.

Brandi: 22:16 They’re both the same amount of work because on one hand if you’ve had the same thing, even if you know that you need a new one, sometimes you’ve just got so much emotionally invested in that look that it’s hard. It’s hard to move on from that. And if you have nothing like the world is your oyster and you know, sometimes they have like no idea or a really specific idea of what they might want and both, all those things are difficult in different ways.

Michelle: 22:40 I was gonna say that somebody who has something specific in their mind that’s, That’d be rough for, I think anybody to try to pull out of someone’s brain.

Brandi: 22:49 Right? Right. Um, if updating, what do you feel is working and what do you feel is not working with the designs you’re currently using? So it gives it, it gives them the opportunity to feel like they, they are still having some say in this like, well, I like this. I like the colors of my logo, but I don’t like, you know, the airplane and it anymore or whatever.

Michelle: 23:10 Right.

Brandi: 23:10 Um, uh, the next one is, is this thing, I think I mentioned before, it’s called a SWOT analysis. This is a marketing thing, uh, the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. So as a business, what would you say are your strengths? What do you excel at? Weaknesses, what are your biggest obstacles? Opportunities, something in the future. You could utilize. And threats. What factors threaten your success. Every time people have the most difficulty with this.

Michelle: 23:39 Oh, I bet. It sounds, it sounds really hard. Like it sounds harder the other questions because you really have to think and be vulnerable. And vulnerability is not something that a lot of us are good at.

Brandi: 23:53 You’re like, Uh threats? I don’t know.

Michelle: 23:56 I don’t have any I guess.

Brandi: 23:58 And threats could be, the most common thing that people write is competition. But honestly, threats can be like

Michelle: 24:07 Yourself.

Brandi: 24:07 Yeah, your own shortcomings. Like a threat to my business. I just opened a coffee shop and I actually don’t know anything about brewing coffee.

Michelle: 24:15 That’s happened so many times.

Brandi: 24:16 But it’s exciting to me and I want to learn. So that’s also an opportunity.

Michelle: 24:20 It’s an opportunity, but it’s also a shortcoming because you gotta it’s a learning curve.

Brandi: 24:24 Right.

Michelle: 24:24 And that’s not, it doesn’t really work in the world of business.

Brandi: 24:28 Exactly. So that’s a hard one. Um, and that if, if you do kind of take, take these questions and make it your own, which you are welcome to do that, um, you are probably going to get questions on that the most often or have to draw people out on those ones a little bit more. Um, the next one is, is your desired deadline flexible or fixed? If fixed, what is the date? If flexible? What is your timeline? The project timeline includes the various stages of the design project such as consultation, concept development, production, and delivery.

Michelle: 25:01 Okay.

Brandi: 25:01 I added that becausenot, not the people are stupid, but people are stupid, like in, in like the nicest way. Like they, they just don’t know. What does that mean? It’s kind of timeline. What is that?

Michelle: 25:13 And I mean people are, are dumb in the way that they don’t really listen. They don’t really pay attention. I mean, look, think about when you watch a commercial, you don’t tune into that commercial until you’re like, shoot, what is this about? I know I’m actually interested in this.

Brandi: 25:27 Unless it’s add wallet.

Michelle: 25:28 I know, add wallet or like Wix.

Brandi: 25:30 And then you watch because you’re getting paid to know what they are saying.

Michelle: 25:33 Exactly. You’re like, oh, this one and I get ten cents.

Brandi: 25:35 Thank you.

Michelle: 25:37 Um, yeah. So that we’d obviously do not mean that in a degrading way, but.

Brandi: 25:44 No, no.

Michelle: 25:45 People don’t pay attention.

Brandi: 25:46 Yeah. I meant that very lovingly, sarcastically. Like I understand that people don’t know which is why I do this.

Michelle: 25:54 Right, that’s the point.

Brandi: 25:54 Which is why we’re here today. What thought, feeling, or action can we bring to life with this project? This is one of my favorite questions.

Michelle: 26:04 It’s like the passion side of it.

Brandi: 26:06 Yeah. It’s like, what do you want people to feel about what you’re doing or what you have or what do you want them to do if we’re creating a book cover, how do you want them to feel about this book? And you know, why do you want them to read it? That kind of thing.

Michelle: 26:21 Right.

Brandi: 26:21 Um, the next one is, okay, this one’s probably the most for, for, for the rest of the process this is the most important question.

Michelle: 26:30 Okay.

Brandi: 26:32 What characteristic adjectives describe the personality, approach, or message you would like to communicate to your audience?

Michelle: 26:39 Whew, that’s a big one.

Brandi: 26:41 For example, modern, traditional, creative, reserved, familiar, etc.

Michelle: 26:46 Wasn’t kelly’s like nostalgic, like for, for This Feeling.

Brandi: 26:50 For This Feeling. Okay. Um nostalgic.

Michelle: 26:53 Kelly is my husband. He made a song. It’s called This Feeling.

Brandi: 26:57 I talk about it in a past episode. I did the album art for his last 2 releases. Um, so nostalgic, memories, um, any kind of descriptive adjective words that you can think of to describe your business, your product. This here is what we use to start the next phase, which is the word map, which we’ll get to, but this one place, like if I only had like five questions, this would be one of those five that I would ask. Um, so do you have any other, is that pretty straightforward?

Michelle: 27:33 It’s pretty straightforward. Is that like the end of that?

Brandi: 27:36 Well, no, I’m like, that was question 12 of a 19.

Michelle: 27:40 Okay.

Brandi: 27:41 So just a few more.

Michelle: 27:42 Yeah.

Brandi: 27:42 Um, who is your ideal client? Primary target market or audience? What are, what are their demographics and psychographics. And I have a little blurb where I explained what that means. Um, age, gender, income, tastes, views, attitudes, employment, geography, lifestyle, etc. If you have multiple audiences, rank them in terms of importance. For example, our customers are mainly moms who are looking for a fun place to hang out with their kids during the day. They are between the ages of 25 and 40 and are willing to pay for a safe, clean environment. So um part of this is something that I call, um writing a target story.

Michelle: 28:23 Okay.

Brandi: 28:23 Um and this is something that you do as a designer after you have this information because they’re going to give you a real basic stuff.

Michelle: 28:28 Right?

Brandi: 28:29 Um, and this, this thing that I came up with called the target story. Basically, you actually write a narrative about who this person is. You give them a name and you basically tell a story about what their day looks like and why it makes sense to your brand.

Michelle: 28:47 We talked about this in the very beginning of the Design Speaks, um, when we were talking about finding your target audience.

Brandi: 28:53 So whatever episode that is, that’s the one.

Michelle: 28:55 It’s labeled that. Go find it.

Brandi: 28:57 Go find it. We’re not Sean Wes, I’m trying, I made a list for today, but it wasn’t on the list.

Michelle: 29:01 You’re on your way to being Sean Wes.

Brandi: 29:04 No, I just want to be me.

Michelle: 29:05 Just be you but like, kinda like Sean Wes.

Brandi: 29:07 A little more organized like Sean Wes. So that’s what that is. So the target is really important because um, the adjective words, the problem you’re trying to solve and your target audience is like the three most important things and all these kind of build off of those. Um, the next one is if your customer came away with just two thoughts about your company with this project, what would you want them to be? So a lot of this stuff is forcing them to kind of whittle down like all the information into like what is the key, what are key parts of what we’re trying to do.

Michelle: 29:42 Does that answer. Does that question give you like canned answers ever? Because I thought of two immediate answers that I’d want to give and I don’t even have a product. Like I’d want to say the two things I want people to remember or that I’m professional and I have a good product.

Brandi: 29:55 Um, sometimes, sometimes. Um, but no, I would say it’s like 50/50 sometimes they’re really off the wall ones and I’m like, I don’t really even understand how that

Michelle: 30:08 Happened in your brain.

Brandi: 30:09 Uh, 2 thoughts about your, uh, okay I’ll work with that. Um, and sometimes it’s like, okay, everybody says that.

Michelle: 30:15 Yeah.

Brandi: 30:15 Can you. So if it’s really can’t even deeper, if it’s really canned, I will ask them to expand on it a little bit. Um, so if, um, if this is a person, I will ask them in person and write down their answer. If it’s not and they send it over email and I decide that this project’s even worth my time. I will say, hey, on question, whatever. Um, can you tell me what you mean by professional? What does a professional look like to you as an author?

Michelle: 30:38 Okay.

Brandi: 30:39 Or whatever um 15 is where they also get some more input. So 15 is, do you have specific images, icons or colors that you do or do not wish to be in your design and why? So I really love chartreuse and I was thinking it would be really pretty in my logo for an investment firm.

Michelle: 31:03 But why?

Brandi: 31:03 Okay. Why?

Michelle: 31:04 Right.

Brandi: 31:05 I just think it’s a really pretty color. Okay. In my mind, discounted already.

Michelle: 31:11 If chanteuse works and then it’ll work, but if it doesn’t then it

Brandi: 31:13 Then it will not.

Michelle: 31:13 Yeah.

Brandi: 31:13 And I know that off the bat. So if there’s things like that, it’s like, okay. So I did, I did, uh, a brand for um, Dakota Cook, she’s an author and something that she said is she doesn’t like pink. Okay, great.

Michelle: 31:27 Right.

Brandi: 31:28 So if pink, if pink were to come around, is the best color, I would have to really analyze ways to explain why that would be her very best color and in her best interest. So I’m taking their, their opinions and their thoughts into consideration always. Um, because often there, I mean, we’ve talked about the, that there’s never one perfect answer. Um, colors get a little dicey because sometimes there is like a color that actually works in some that do not work. Um, so if you get to that point where it’s like, okay, oranges, your color, but you said you don’t like orange, can you tell me why you don’t like orange? And if there’s been times where they’ve said colors that they don’t want to use and given me hardcore reasons that because they know their target market so well this color is off-putting for whatever reason I go, okay, go ahead and option good, we’re going to have to find a new solution.

Michelle: 32:25 But they have a why and that’s why you don’t discredit.

Brandi: 32:28 Yes. So, um, that question is really important that that one also is another one of those ones that’s going to help later because as we’re searching through the word map for colors, you can see if any of the colors that that came up in your word map as colors that are potential to be used for the design are on that list on either side.

Michelle: 32:50 Yep.

Brandi: 32:50 Um, and that’s, that’s another helpful part of this. Um, so every, every step of this process is like building on and referring back to itself, all over the place. Um, the next one is do any existing designs appeal to you and why? This can be advertising posters, logos, or anything that you might be attracted to.

Michelle: 33:09 Right. It’s an inspiration.

Brandi: 33:10 Inspiration. Always everyone, always Apple.

Michelle: 33:15 Oh gosh. Oh gosh.

Brandi: 33:17 Always. Especially if it’s a logo project.

Michelle: 33:19 Really.

Brandi: 33:20 I like, I like Apple because they’re clean.

Michelle: 33:23 Yeah. Okay.

Brandi: 33:24 Okay. Are you Apple? Do you have a technology company even?

Michelle: 33:29 It’s good to want to aspire to be clean if that’s something that you’re going for within your business. It’s just hard to go from Apple.

Brandi: 33:37 But it’s also just like everybody hates comic sans. It’s just one of those, like those canned responses to that I’m just

Michelle: 33:44 Totally.

Brandi: 33:44 Uh, Apple.

Michelle: 33:45 Yeah.

Brandi: 33:45 I love you Apple. I’m hardcore apple all the way, but really like you’ve got to have a better answer than that.

Michelle: 33:51 Yeah, totally.

Brandi: 33:52 So the last few are more practical things. Um, where will the design potentially be printed slash used? Please consider all print and web applications and I have little checkboxes, business cards, website signage, apparel, stationery, letterhead, envelopes, online, facebook, twitter, social media, advertising, postcards, other, and the important thing about this one is because I do value-based pricing, not only do I take into consideration the size of the company, what their product is, but what they are going to be using my design on. If all they need is business cards. You know, like I’m, my uncle is a upholstery guy. All he needed was a new logo for business cards. He doesn’t have a website, he doesn’t need a website, he doesn’t do any advertising whatsoever. All his business is word of mouth. That was not anything you know, so that is going to cost very differently than someone that I do a brand for. Like um, I did this brand for a technology company that tests, they’re called Park Lab. They test playground safety. They have like this ball, it looks like a kettle ball almost thing that they dropped from like the top of like slides and stuff just in case a kid were to fall off. It measures likethe, the amount of force and how dangerous it is based on how much padding is underneath the playground. So they test the safety of the playground.

Michelle: 35:22 Got it.

Brandi: 35:24 So I created a brand and a logo for them. They had a lot more stuff.

Michelle: 35:30 Money.

Brandi: 35:30 They do trade shows, they do all sorts of advertising. They had a website, they, you know, all these things. The logo was going to go on the product itself, all this stuff. So that was priced.

Michelle: 35:43 Differently.

Brandi: 35:44 Completely differently.

Michelle: 35:44 And accordingly.

Brandi: 35:45 And accordingly. So, um, that’s this, this question here is one of the reasons why when people go, how much do you charge me to do?

Michelle: 35:51 You can’t.

Brandi: 35:52 Whatever. I can’t tell you that because I have no idea what you are, what you’re doing with my work.

Michelle: 35:57 And that’s so fair. It’s very fair. And it’s, it’s kind of off-putting from someone like me who might not know that you do value-based pricing or even what that is to hear that you can’t give me a price offhand because you know, there are websites out there that you can go check and say, oh, for this it’d cost about this much, and it’s like a simple or a simple email away for an answer that’s not how most designers work. And I think it’s important to recognize that that process has changed.

Brandi: 36:25 That your value, like in different spheres, it’s worth something different.

Michelle: 36:30 Definitely.

Brandi: 36:31 I mean, you’re not going to pay the same for a Walmart purse as you are for a Gucci purse and, and not just the name.

Michelle: 36:39 Rightly so.

Brandi: 36:39 It’s the, it’s the work that they put into it as the craftsmanship.

Michelle: 36:42 Love it.

Brandi: 36:42 So, um, the next one is who will be responsible for providing the content for the design. Copy, text, logos, etc. So who do I have to talk to  make sure that I getthe, the things that I need for this? Um, when I did all the posters that I did for the Pagosa Springs center for the arts, um, they had about six different sponsors that I needed their logos and I needed to put those on the poster.

Michelle: 37:09 Right.

Brandi: 37:09 There was certain texts that they needed to promote the things and I need to know where I can get that because I will not start designing unless I have all the things that I need because otherwise, I don’t know what I’m working with. If I design this poster thinking I have all certain amount of negative space, it’s going to completely screw everything up. If they go, I’m sorry, I actually have to give you five logos to put on there.

Michelle: 37:32 Yikes.

Brandi: 37:32 Can you fit that in somewhere?

Michelle: 37:34 So you need all that upfront.

Brandi: 37:35 All of always. Always collect as much information as you can at the beginning.

Michelle: 37:40 Before you, before beginning.

Brandi: 37:42 What are your overall goals for this particular project?

Michelle: 37:45 Okay.

Brandi: 37:45 It’s another checkbox thing. Generate sales, encourage inquiries, gain subscribers, obtain information from your audience, encourage referrals, or other.

Michelle: 37:55 Okay.

Brandi: 37:56 And the last one is, what would the success of this project look like to you? So if this logo is a roaring success or if your book is a roaring success, what does that look like to you?

Michelle: 38:08 That’s good.

Brandi: 38:08 And that helps me have sort of like a goal. Um, you know how it’s, it’s part of the problem for me to solve is to help them reach that success.

Michelle: 38:18 That makes sense. So that is your design brief. Um, how long or short should a brief be?

Brandi: 38:27 Brief. Haha

Michelle: 38:28 Haha, get it? Right there

Brandi: 38:31 You walked right into that one.

Michelle: 38:32 It’s right there. And I wasn’t even thinking. It’s like part of the thing when you forget that that word means what that is.

Brandi: 38:39 Yeah, it’s a, it should be brief minus two pages. It’s  front and back. there are design briefs that I’ve seen that are 12 pages.

Michelle: 38:49 That’s not brief.

Brandi: 38:50 No, no. And so, um.

Michelle: 38:53 But it can be as short as five questions.

Brandi: 38:55 It can be. Um, I think that a mine I have aimed, my goal is, has always been to keep it on front and back two pages. If I, if I take something out or add something, I need to make sure that not just by squeezing less, like there needs to be an adequate enough, an adequate amount of space for them to write their answers in all the information that I would need from them and still keep it on two pages.

Michelle: 39:20 That’s good.

Brandi: 39:20 And I think that if you ask too much, you won’t get anything because they’ll look at 12 pages and go, heck no.

Michelle: 39:28 Not doing this.

Brandi: 39:29 If they see three questions, it might be like, well, this isn’t very much. They’re not. How do they even know what I want with three questions? So, um, I think that finding that balance for the kind of creative work that you do is really important. An illustrator, my desk different questions than I do. Um, a web designer is going to have a lot more questions. Um, you know, based on user experience that they have to deal with. So, um, this is kind of a base, that’s why I did the design brief, not the logo brief. Um, specific questions can be inserted and other things can be taken out to kind of meet your needs.

Michelle: 40:04 That’s good.

Brandi: 40:04 Whew.

Michelle: 40:06 So you did write about your brief in your on your blog.

Brandi: 40:10 I have.

Michelle: 40:12 It’s called The Brief. It’s number 31.

Brandi: 40:14 Oh good. You have the list.

Michelle: 40:15 Yeah, it’s number 31. And on your blog.

Brandi: 40:17 You can just search number 31 on my website.

Michelle: 40:21 Yeah. is that, is this creative brief available to view on that?

Brandi: 40:25 Yes. So you have a free download link if you if you go read that blog post.

Michelle: 40:30 Yeah. So you guys can go get this for yourself. We talked about a lot. Um, you can also relisten to this episode because there’s a lot to take in. Can take notes.

Brandi: 40:38 And to be fair, I actually, I’m not sure which version that is because I started my blog in 2016 and

Michelle: 40:44 Things have changed.

Brandi: 40:46 And so I’ve probably updated a little bit, but it’s a good starting place for you. If you really want the most updated version, I’d be happy to send that to you. Just email me and ask me for it.

Michelle: 40:56 Yeah. How can people find us?

Brandi: 40:58 Um, let’s see. You can visit me on my website, brandisea.com. You can email me brandi@brandisea.com, b, r, a, n, d, i, s, e, a. I’m the only one. So even if you just google Brandi Sea, I’m, you’ll find me somewhere. Linkedin. All the things. Design Speaks podcast on Instagram.

Michelle: 41:16 Go give us a follow doing fun things over there. It looks great. Thanks to Brandi.

Brandi: 41:20 Working on it. Working real hard and I’m like mine has sort of fallen to the wayside because I’m working so hard on Design Speaks podcast.

Michelle: 41:26 I love it. I love how it looks. Go at least just look at it with your eyes.

Brandi: 41:30 So if you guys have any questions, um more specific questions on the brief, on the client meeting. Um, DM me, email me or message us wherever we are available to you.

Michelle: 41:42 And on the next episode we will be covering word map.

Brandi: 41:46 Oh my gosh.

Michelle: 41:47 My gosh. Concept and elements. I’m really. Is that the only thing we’re covering?

Brandi: 41:52 Yes.

Michelle: 41:53 It’s a big one, but you know what? You’re going to get so much from it. It’s going to be fun, so thank you to Vesperteen for allowing us to use his song as the intro and outro to our

Brandi: 42:04 Podcast?

Michelle: 42:04 Podcast. I’m like, what do we have?

Brandi: 42:06 To this thing?

Michelle: 42:07 This whole thing? A words. What are they? I’ve been talking a lot today, you guys.

Brandi: 42:11 Yeah.

Michelle: 42:12 But not as much as Brandi. Anyway, thanks for Vesperteen.

Brandi: 42:16 That’s usually true.

Michelle: 42:17 Yeah.

Brandi: 42:17 No one’s ever talkIng as much as Brandi.

Michelle: 42:19 Brandi talks. I don’t know if you know that, but she talks.