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Brandi: 00:01 Have I ever told you that I almost like I almost never use Google?

Michelle: 00:05 Yeah, you’ve told me that. But I don’t get it. Like part of me is just like why though? It’s right there. Like when people in a conversation have a question like, oh, I wonder how old George Clooney is right now? They’re like, well we have this whatever resource called Google let me tell you.

Intro dude: 00:19 Welcome to Design Speaks. This lovely podcast is brought to you by a graphic design geek and a regular human being. AKA a non-designer. We’re here to chat about music, pop culture, cool places, and basically whatever we feel is relevant.

Brandi: 00:35 Hey guys, I’m Brandi Sea.

Michelle: 00:37 And I’m Michelle.

Brandi: 00:38 And you’re listening to episode 86 of Design Speaks.

Michelle: 00:42 And today we’re continuing our series on the process on

Brandi: 00:45 The process.

Michelle: 00:46 The process, capital t, capital p, the process.

Brandi: 00:50 Toilet paper?

Michelle: 00:51 Toilet paper or a teepee, um, Brandi’s process. And today we’re going to be talking about the research phase.

Brandi: 00:58 Yeah. So deeper research on concept direction on collecting style references. So we’re going to cover research and collecting style references today.

Michelle: 01:08 And before we get to that, I’m going to share a song with you.

Brandi: 01:12 Finally!

Michelle: 01:12 I know.

Brandi: 01:13 I’m like, do you not listen to music?

Michelle: 01:14 I do listen to music, unfortunately. And fortunately for me, I’ve only been listening to one album this entire time, like for over a month at this point. It’s, it’s ridiculous. Um, I have been in love with Maggie Rogers new album. Um, Heard it in a Past Life. She has a song that I heard pretty much. Ah, she, she released it before the album was released, but it didn’t get as big as light on.

Brandi: 01:42 It as well received.

Michelle: 01:44 Um, I don’t know if that is, it just wasn’t as pushed as much.

Brandi: 01:48 Promoted.

Michelle: 01:48 Yeah, as a single. Um, she sang it on SNL, so that’s the first time I heard it and like I just super resonate with it. It’s called Falling Water, so take a listen.

Michelle: 03:23 There it is.

Brandi: 03:24 Those beets.

Michelle: 03:25 I know. I love it. There is a time, like the first two weeks, this album release that I, I just woke up with this song stuck in my head. I’d be in my cubicle at work in the quiet and just start singing the song and realize everybody can hear me.

Brandi: 03:42 Oh!

Michelle: 03:42 Everybody can hear me.

Brandi: 03:43 So not humming, just so I’d start singing.

Michelle: 03:46 No, I’d start singing out loud with words not humming. Um, it’s just so catchy. And what I really, really love about this song is her honesty. Um, I think as a creative, we all really want to be honest and raw. Uh, but sometimes it’s hard. So.

Brandi: 04:01 It is.

Michelle: 04:03 The, the lyric

Brandi: 04:04 Authenticity takes work.

Michelle: 04:06 Yes. The lyric. I never loved you and the way that I like, that’s hard to admit. Yeah. That’s like saying I’m sorry I was a jerk and I didn’t give this my all.

Brandi: 04:15 I’m sorry I’m not trying my best, but I realize it.

Michelle: 04:18 Yeah. And so I, I just love this song. Um, it, it reminds me of, um, the sleeping at last song that he wrote for one Enneagram, the enneagram for

Brandi: 04:32 I just listened to all those yesterday.

Michelle: 04:35 One starts off with this, like, hold on, like, and it feels like you’re saying it was, oh my gosh, hold on. And she does that in this song and I don’t think they’re related in it.

Brandi: 04:43 Hold on for a minute.

Michelle: 04:44 Yeah. Um, I don’t think that’s like related at all, but I love that. It just feels like I need to hold on.

Brandi: 04:50 Yeah.

Michelle: 04:50 It’s good.

Brandi: 04:51 That’s great. I like it a lot.

Michelle: 04:52 Some good thoughts into it? Yeah.

Brandi: 04:54 I think this is one of the ones I liked the best. I’ve, I listened to the album briefly as a once through and I think this is one of the ones that I liked the best.

Michelle: 05:00 It’s so good.

Brandi: 05:00 Yeah. For sure.

Michelle: 05:01 It’s got the, it’s got the Florence feel.

Brandi: 05:03 It does. That’s probably why

Michelle: 05:05 It’s got the Stevie Nicks feel.

Brandi: 05:05 I know all the things, all the good things. All the rock and women.

Michelle: 05:09 Yes. Today we are going to be talking about

Brandi: 05:16 Our Patreon!

Michelle: 05:16 Our Patreon, not research, but we will get to that.

Brandi: 05:18 This is just a little blurb to remind you that we have a Patreon.

Michelle: 05:22 Patrion.com/designspeaks and you can go check out all of the fun little things that you can get for donating monthly. Um, we recently just got another one. So we’re really, really excited for all the people who are coming on board.

Brandi: 05:36 Everything from a dollar or two I think are most is $50.

Michelle: 05:39 Yeah.

Brandi: 05:39 Yeah.

Michelle: 05:40 And that’s just monthly. So a dollar you guys, that’s not a lot. And we’re, so we’re not, it’s not a lot out of your bank account.

Brandi: 05:46 But it’s a lot to us.

Michelle: 05:47 It’s a lot to us. And so we’re just so thankful for everyone who’s jumped onboard thus far. Um, we’re really excited to keep this going.

Brandi: 05:53 Yeah. So that’s, that’s our little blurb.

Michelle: 05:56 Patrion.com/designspeaks.

Brandi: 05:59 There you go.

Michelle: 06:00 And now on to the, the research bit of the process that we’re going through.

Brandi: 06:04 Okay. So, um, I don’t know. I guess I always say like, oh, this is the most important part, but, um, so this is one of the most important parts. They’re all really important in their own ways, but um, you know, it’s like, word map is super important, but you can’t do the word map without the brief. You obviously can’t have a brief without some sort of client meeting. Um, but in order to get to your most unique concepts and ideas and executions, the word map and the research are the two biggest portions of this. Um, so the research can, can have like a lot of things involved in it. Once you’ve got your concepts. So we’re going to, I’m, I’m basically gonna focus all of this on Kelly’s album, so he’s going to kind of be my example moving forward.

Michelle: 06:55 Okay.

Brandi: 06:56 Last episode I talked about how I got to his concept and I talked about a lot of others that I did in my class, but because this one’s um, one that I saw through from beginning to end and I have notes on all the process of research and all that, I want to be able to bring that to show you guys, um, auditorily show you guys. We talked about that last time. Um, so research, what is, what does this sound like to you? Like when I say you need to research, Michelle, what do you think that like that entails?

Michelle: 07:27 Well.

Brandi: 07:28 Not, take me out of this and how, you know, like what I do.

Michelle: 07:31 Well to me, research means I need to go onto Google and figure out what the heck this is all about. That’s, that’s research to me.

Brandi: 07:39 Okay.

Michelle: 07:39 Um, I guess I could try out books, but I feel like Google is just the most easily accessible, so.

Brandi: 07:46 Okay.

Michelle: 07:46 I don’t have been a whole insight encyclopedia set anymore.

Brandi: 07:50 Who does?

Michelle: 07:51 I don’t know. But I had one growing up.

Brandi: 07:53 Encyclopedia Britannica discontinued. Like last year I was a little sad.

Michelle: 07:57 Yeah. That is really sad.

Brandi: 07:57 I’m like, I’ve been saving my whole life to buy one of those.

Michelle: 07:59 I need that whole set. Are they on clearance?

Brandi: 08:01 I don’t know. I don’t know. I probably just kind of like purchase the subscription for my kids online.

Michelle: 08:07 There you go.

Brandi: 08:07 They’re still online. Just not physical books.

Michelle: 08:08 See that’s the sad part. So research to me is getting on Google and finding out more without it being just Wikipedia.

Brandi: 08:16 Have I ever told you that I almost like, I almost never use Google?

Michelle: 08:20 Yeah, you’ve told me that, but I don’t get it. Like part of me is just like, why though? It’s right there. Like when people in a conversation have a question like, Huh, I wonder how old George Clooney is right now. You’re like, well we have this resource called Google. Let me tell you.

Brandi: 08:34 Yeah.

Michelle: 08:35 So.

Brandi: 08:35 So I make, I make a point to almost use the internet as a last, as a last step. So I’m just going to list off the things that I use and then I’ll kind of go into, into some of them a little bit deeper. So I look at books first, like books that I have. I have a good variety. You can see them all behind me. I have, I have books on color, I have books on art, I have books on photography, I have books on graffiti.

Michelle: 09:11 So you’ve had to become a collector of books. You’ve, you’ve basically had to start collecting books in order to further your research search process, process, process, books on color, books on photography, books on, murals, books on book covers.

Brandi: 09:28 Yeah. So, um, I even have this one that I picked up at the Getty Villa Museum in, um, in California, it’s called symbols and allegories and art, which basically looks into, um, like if there’s a cat in an old renaissance painting.

Michelle: 09:47 What does it mean?

Brandi: 09:48 What does a cat represent? Because you know, um, in, in classical art and classical fine art, every single thing that they did for the most part had some sort of meaning, which obviously resonates with me very deeply because I believe that a good designer has reasons, which is part of why we, why I’m going through this whole process thing because this allows you to have reasons for all your choices. So I’ve, I, art history was one of my favorite classes. I took a philosophy of, of art in college also. So not just our history but the philosophy of art and that’s where this kind of symbology and stuff comes in. So when I’m doing research depending on the product, the project I get, like I usually don’t get more than six books. Um, I kind of like go through my bookshelf and not including color books. Color books are separate. But like other sorts of books, poster designs, book designs, no matter what I’m doing, I just kind of pick a book, a set of books and look at them. So there’s books, there’s actual art and photography. So looking at not just books about art but looking at art itself. So going, if I’ve, um, on how I do this basically is if I’m looking for a like a photographic direction, I will look on through photography books or I will look through my photos of other photos. Like, so if I found a photograph in a museum that I really thought was interesting, I probably have it in one of my folders on my phone. Um, so then I also speak into my phone. I look through my own inspiration folder.

Michelle: 11:27 Ooh.

Brandi: 11:28 So I, as you know, and this is where, where the collecting, you know, I always talk about all these crazy inspirational things that I find. I take pictures of everything.

Michelle: 11:36 Yeah.

Brandi: 11:36 They’re in a folder.

Michelle: 11:37 And you refer back to them.

Brandi: 11:38 And I do refer back to them, especially if it was something that really stuck in. I’m like, oh my gosh when I was in New York, I remember I was in this restaurant and there was this one thing in the corner, but I can’t remember what it was. So then I can go back and go, okay, that was the field I was the color, or whatever. So I’m going back to those things. Um, so fine art, also including um sculptures too, not just, not just paintings and photography, but sculptures. Um, and obviously these aren’t for every project.

Michelle: 12:08 Right.

Brandi: 12:08 This is just like, I’m just giving you like the vast array of things that you can use for research.

Michelle: 12:13 So your research ultimately does take a bit of upkeep because you need and you build it, you build it as time goes on. So the reason you can say you have all of these resources to look at for research is because you’ve spent the past 15 years building this up.

Brandi: 12:27 Collecting them. Yeah. And I realize that book collecting is something that takes money and time and which is why it’s, it’s, you know, developed over time into this library, this mini library that I have now. However, anyone can get a free library card.

Michelle: 12:44 Oh yeah.

Brandi: 12:44 And they have tons of books on art specifically. Um, they have, they are now starting to have a lot more books on like design and things like that. But I am a strong believer in if you are doing an album cover, not just looking at other albums for inspiration.

Michelle: 13:00 Yeah. You can’t then you’re copying.

Brandi: 13:01 Cause I have, yeah, I have, I have a big book. I have a couple of books on CD art and album cover design and um, I didn’t grab either one of those two research for Kelly’s.

Michelle: 13:15 Probably for safety.

Brandi: 13:16 Yeah. Well and yeah, for safety. But also it’s like if you want to look at them for maybe how they laid out the type, like

Michelle: 13:24 That makes sense.

Brandi: 13:24 How did they put the title, the artist and the title of the album maybe.

Michelle: 13:28 Yeah, that makes sense.

Brandi: 13:29 As far as like the design and the colors and stuff you need to be looking elsewhere because you’re just going to end up looking like some sort of weird knock off just by default.

Michelle: 13:38 And I mean plagiarism is a big thing and you don’t want it to accidentally happen because I remember this and I’m just going to say it, when you’re in the research time and you look at stuff, you can accidentally remember that and put that into the actual like final outcome. And when you do a Google image search, all of a sudden that picture pops up and you’re like, well, I’ve stolen this. Sorry. Or your style reference looks far too similar to, to what you’ve just done.

Brandi: 14:05 Right. Um, so yeah. So, so the research phase is, is, is twofold. It is one to get ideas but to, to eliminate things you can’t do that already exists. So maybe you have this idea that you don’t realize that you maybe have seen before and in your research, you can go, Oh Dang, that already exists. I need to do something different. Um, but ultimately if you’re doing enough varied research of different avenues, the likelihood that you’re going to even come up with something that looks anything like anything else is so slim because you’re looking at something varied. You’re not looking at all book covers and doing a book design. You’re not looking at posters to do a poster design. You’re looking at fine art to do a poster design. You’re looking at photography to do an album cover. And so all of that research really plays into it. Um, another, another couple of really unconventional things that I do is, um, TV shows and movies.

Michelle: 15:00 Yeah.

Brandi: 15:01 Um, I didn’t, I did not do that for Kelly’s, but if you remember when I did the branding for, um, the, the photographer that I watched, um, Dr. Thorn, I think on Amazon, it was like this Victorian era.

Michelle: 15:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brandi: 15:16 TV show. Because I was, that was part of the research of that era, that time period that I was looking for  her branding.

Michelle: 15:25 Yeah, that makes sense. And I do remember you doing that and kind of being a little jealous.

Brandi: 15:29 Which is just a little bit of a cheater way because let’s be real. The people making that show did all the research to make sure that the show looked authentic and right.

Michelle: 15:39 You read the spark notes.

Brandi: 15:40 Yeah. So it’s like, okay, I’m going to watch this. And because I’m, I’m a, I’m a visual, I’m a visual learner. I can learn, I can learn in all sorts of different ways, just like most people, but one of my primary ways to learn is visually. And so to be able to see that and go that’s, that’s how it feels. Okay. Now I have, I already had color palette ideas and stuff, but.

Michelle: 16:03 Well, when you’re watching it, you’re seeing, you’re seeingthe, the sets, you’re seeing the room, you’re seeing how everything looked, the colors that they’re wearing, but you’re also getting their acting, which is a specific type of, which adds to the feel. So the way they talk, how they talk, how they carry themselves, all of that should be in the feeling of whatever you were doing.

Brandi: 16:24 Exactly.

Michelle: 16:25 For the photographer.

Brandi: 16:25 Yeah. So it’s, it’s a lot more fun too because when you, when you put together, um, say it, depending on the client, sometimes I put together, um, a like I guess the only way to explain it is to say like a mood board.

Michelle: 16:42 Okay.

Brandi: 16:43 Sort of. It’s, I call it an inspiration board for our clients so that they can understand where like kind of on a more broad sense where I came up with these ideas on board.

Michelle: 16:53 It’s like a tone. Tone board?

Brandi: 16:54 Yeah. So it’s not this, it’s not like, okay, here’s this picture of this, um, this brand for another photographer that I liked and here’s just my version of it. That’s the wrong kind of inspiration. It’s like, okay, here I, I saw this color of dress on this girl, on this show. Here’s this picture of this group of succulents that I saw on Instagram that had this perfect green that actually meaning wise, worked really well and you know, showing all the steps and it’s like, it’s all, it almost looks like a, have you ever seen an interior design board when they’re presenting like that look of a room?

Michelle: 17:31 Yeah, it looks very cool.

Brandi: 17:33 It’s similar to that because you’re taking all these disparate things as inspiration and pulling them all together and making something brand new.

Michelle: 17:41 I see as just a human being with any integrity. Um, I have hated seeing people come up with a, with a brand of some sort of, of their brand and looking at their brand and saying, you literally just went to this place and saw that you and saw this and made it yours somehow. Um, I hate it being the obvious.

Brandi: 18:04 Right.

Michelle: 18:05 Um, and I have, I’m, I’m thinking of someone specific that I won’t even say, but it was just, I really

Brandi: 18:10 It’s sad, but I can think of a few people.

Michelle: 18:12 Yeah. It’s just, it’s really concerning to me just to, like, when, when I, when I saw that, I thought, man, if you’re not going to put that much effort into this, what is your product going to be?

Brandi: 18:23 Right.

Michelle: 18:23 Do I trust it?

Brandi: 18:24 Yeah.

Michelle: 18:25 So it was, it was just lowered.

Brandi: 18:26 How are you different?

Michelle: 18:27 Yeah, it’s

Brandi: 18:28 What’s your unique, what’s your USP? Your unique selling point is what I can copy you.

Michelle: 18:32 Yeah. And, and this happened before I ever even started this podcast. So I’m going back to that in my mind and thinking, yikes. And I’m still there.

Brandi: 18:42 People have an innate sense of picking out frauds.

Michelle: 18:45 Yeah. It’s like, oh, that looks like, and that’s why Kelly, whenever he’s writing a song, he’ll sing it and either all say, or he’ll ask, does that sound like anything? Or I’ll tell him like, hey, that sounds like this and I’ll sing it. He goes, ah, it does.

Brandi: 19:01 Right.

Michelle: 19:01 And it’s not because we don’t want to like outright copy, but we just, or we don’t want, it doesn’t, it’s not like we’re trying to be so different that we can’t be like anybody else.

Brandi: 19:09 You can be influenced by, but without ripping off.

Michelle: 19:14 I’m like his Google image search.

Brandi: 19:16 You’re his voice search.

Michelle: 19:17 I’m his voice search. If that sounds like this. And I’d be like

Brandi: 19:19 I feel like that should be a thing.

Michelle: 19:21 Yeah.

Brandi: 19:21 You need to like create some software for that, Michelle.

Michelle: 19:24 I don’t,

Brandi: 19:24 Make that a resource to.

Michelle: 19:26 I’ll get someone to create it for me. I know that is not my strong suit.

Brandi: 19:30 Find an entrepreneur that will take your idea and make you lots of money.

Michelle: 19:33 Hey, this is, I should tell them I work with a web developer. I’d be like, so you got this, this is a good idea. He said this his least favorite thing to hear. Oh, I have an APP that you should make. Like that’s like his least favorite thing to hear.

Brandi: 19:44 But we all need an APP developer.

Michelle: 19:46 We do.

Brandi: 19:47 I mean, I do.

Michelle: 19:49 Yeah, I get it. I get it. And just go up to him and say, and he’ll be like, he’ll just shake his head at me.

Brandi: 19:55 Like that’s like when people go, oh, I need a logo.

Michelle: 19:58 Okay.

Brandi: 19:59 Okay. Thanks?

Michelle: 20:00 Great.

Brandi: 20:00 Do you, what?

Michelle: 20:01 Do you want to email me about it?

Brandi: 20:05 Yeah. Okay. So now I’m gonna, I’m gonna like talk a little bit more in-depth on what I did for Kelly.

Michelle: 20:11 Okay.

Brandi: 20:11 Um, so for Kelly, I got, I got together some, um, some poster design books, some just general print design books, which, which could be, um, business cards. It could be brochures or posters or anything. Um, a book cover. And my, my ultimate all-time favorite for this project was that symbols and allegories in an art book.

Michelle: 20:40 Okay.

Brandi: 20:40 That, excuse me, that I got at the Getty Museum. So in my word map, it came out that, and if you recall last week’s episode, and if you haven’t listened, you need to listen to the first two so that this first three, so that this one makes sense.

Michelle: 20:57 Very rarely do we need to do this, but we’re in the middle of a series, so it’ll just make sense.

Brandi: 21:00 Yeah, it will make much more sense. So, um, I think I mentioned that geometric shapes came up as part of the process.

Michelle: 21:08 Triangles.

Brandi: 21:09 Yeah. So, um, so it was actually just geometric shapes.

Michelle: 21:14 In the beginning.

Brandi: 21:14 Yeah. So what I did was, um, the concept was almost winter. So in your mind, it’s like how does, how does winter even relate to geometric shapes?

Michelle: 21:26 Okay, yeah.

Brandi: 21:26 So this is part of my research okay.

Michelle: 21:28 Without it just looking like, oh, it looks cool.

Brandi: 21:30 Right? Because that’s

Michelle: 21:31 But why?

Brandi: 21:32 Because that’s what hipsters do, right. Just throw shapes on stuff because it looks cool and I don’t work like that.

Michelle: 21:37 Right.

Brandi: 21:37 Um, so I went to this book and I, well, first of all, I have, I keep a running, I keep a running list, not a list, it’s just not a running list. I keep a little reference of like the four basic shapes. So triangles, squares, actually just the three and circles and what those shapes represent. Because often in, in branding or design, you will have some version of these shapes, probably almost always, um, whether it’s like a half circle or a part of a triangle or you know, whatever. So, um, so what I did was I wrote down, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna be real transparent and write, read everything that I have here. So for a triangle, dynamic tension, balance, the Trinity and self-discovery, and these aren’t all words that, that this shape means, but these were the ones that apply to Kelly’s project.

Michelle: 22:34 Okay.

Brandi: 22:34 Specifically, um, uh, a square is stability, honesty, earthbound. Um, if it’s tilted, if the square is tilted, it means something’s unexpected.

Michelle: 22:45 Huh.

Brandi: 22:45 Um, and circles are eternity, whole, infinite, warm, um, comforting, integrity and promoting life, protecting life and just life in general. So, um, so for this particular project it was like, okay, circles and triangles seem the most appropriate as far as like the meanings that they already have and these meanings, are meanings that are just inherent, like these are like ancient, just built in, like circles is because the circle of life, because the world is round because you know, life starts as an egg, which is a circle and like all these, these things that are just like, it’s not someone just saying that’s what this means. It just is.

Michelle: 23:36 It works.

Brandi: 23:37 Yeah.

Michelle: 23:38 Because.

Brandi: 23:38 Um, so I knew for sure that I wanted to use, um, circles and triangles possibly squares cause there were some in there but not as many. Um, and how I decided that was some of the words in there are in the word map.

Michelle: 23:53 Okay.

Brandi: 23:54 So some of those words are in the word map. I’m saying it twice because it’s important.

Michelle: 23:58 That makes sense.

Brandi: 23:59 Um, so when you’re looking at meetings and things and trying to figure out stuff if you go, oh, that sounds right, look at the word map and see if it’s there. And if it’s there, that probably means that’s a good choice as an option.

Michelle: 24:10 It’s like, it’s like double checking your work.

Brandi: 24:13 Yes. And that’s what the word, so after you’re done with the word map and you’ve chosen colors and concepts and image or a visual elements, it now just serves as a reference point. So you will need to have that nearby at all times until you’re ready to execute because you need to be, this is your double check. This is where you go. Okay. I like the idea of using this thing. Is that in the word map? Um, I like the meaning of this, but is that in the word map? And if it’s not, you don’t have a reason to use it and you can check it.

Michelle: 24:44 That’s really good. I am so, so bad at interior design. I’m so bad at it and I find

Brandi: 24:51 I don’t think you are, but it’s okay.

Michelle: 24:53 I, it took me six years to get my living room to where it is right now. Um, but I’m so bad at it and it’s because I would say, oh, I really like this, this look and I really liked this feel. But then I’d see something at the store that I’m like, that’s so cool. And I buy it and I’d go into my living room and I’d hold it and I’d be like, well this doesn’t work at all

Brandi: 25:12 It’s not cool anymore.

Michelle: 25:14 Yeah. It’s not cool within my room. And so I would just like be like, but I really like it. I’m going to put it here. And then it just made everything feel terrible and I mean

Brandi: 25:23 Out of context it sounded good.

Michelle: 25:24 Yeah. And so that’s what I’m kind of relating it to is that I, I get, I get the necessity of keeping those things close to the intent throughout the entire research phase until execution because it would be so easy to stray from it.

Brandi: 25:39 And it is because, especially as creatives, especially as designers, we like new and shiny ideas and it’s like,

Michelle: 25:46 Oh my gosh.

Brandi: 25:46 This thing, this epiphany just happened. And it’s like, I’m going to do that instead. And then you, you do it and you, if you look back at the mind map, the word map and you go this, none of these things are here. This doesn’t work at all.

Michelle: 25:59 Right.

Brandi: 25:59 And so then it basically eliminates that like terrible mistake making time because you’re, you’re not just following all these weird rabbit trails.

Michelle: 26:11 Right?

Brandi: 26:11 You’re like, you’ve got a mission.

Michelle: 26:13 Yes, exactly. It’s focused.

Brandi: 26:15 Yeah. Um, so the other things that I use this book for, um, and I highly recommend this book. Um, I can probably put a link to it.

Michelle: 26:24 What is it called again?

Brandi: 26:25 It’s called Symbols and Allegories in Art. Um, it’s from the Getty. I’m not sure if they sell it on Amazon or just on the Getty. G e t t y.

Michelle: 26:34 Getty images.

Brandi: 26:35 It is, yeah. It’s the people that get, John Paul Getty is, was a bazillionaire and did all these museums and

Michelle: 26:44 So cool.

Brandi: 26:44 All the stuff. So, um, part of how this thing is organized is, um, uh, let’s see, how do I put this? It’s like categories of things or objects. So the things that were the most useful to me for Kelly’s project, um, just by default. So his, his concept is almost winter, so I went to the season’s section.

Michelle: 27:06 Makes Sense.

Brandi: 27:07 So there’s a section for seasons and went over. I looked at all the different seasons and I looked at autumn and winter because it’s somewhere in between there. And I wrote down, I wrote down some observations about those things, but, um, primarily for winter I will read this to you. Sorry, I’m blind out of my glass on, I had to pull it closer to my face. Um, uh, so landscapes of blue trees was, was like a, a commonality in, in classic art. Um, varied whites are colors that were important. Um, Gray Greens and Brownish blacks equaled harsh winter. Um, so those were a couple of things. Um, shadows equal death. Um, and twilight, like if anyone painted twilight, that was a symbol of autumn.

Michelle: 28:02 Oh, that’s interesting.

Brandi: 28:04 Yeah.

Michelle: 28:05 So like Van Gogh, is that, is that the wrong, like the starry night, is that like a different.

Brandi: 28:13 That’s, I mean that’s night.

Michelle: 28:14 Like its night, but it’s, I guess it’s not Twilight, twilight brighter.

Brandi: 28:18 Twilight is right before it gets dark. It’s a little before it gets dark.

Michelle: 28:19 That makes sense.

Brandi: 28:20 Yeah. So, um, for winter, um, it gives, and it shows you examples of things, but it basically, it basically talks about how like the, where the word winter comes from, from the old Norse vetter into the Indo European wed or to be wet. So it like has all these things related gods and symbols, Kronos um, Saturn, Janice, night, water temperament, old age. Um, so it, it’s like, I know this probably seems like super boring and weird, but I need, I wanted to have a deeper understanding of symbology. If I was going to be using symbols in this artwork.

Michelle: 29:01 I think it’s actually really not boring. Um, because I didn’t know that that’s what those things could have meant. Um like for season’s in that, I think that’s just a really interesting section of the work of the book because I think it’s a really interesting section of the book because you didn’t have those words or that knowledge beforehand and it seems so easy to grasp.

Brandi: 29:24 Right. Yeah. So it’s, it’s an I set and I wanted this to be titled like deeper research because this isn’t surface level research. Like, in order to get your most unique designs, you have to use the word map to help you get to this deeper level. So the other words that were in the visuals, if you remember were like woods and trees. So I also looked at woods and trees and the symbols book to make sure that, and all of this is, is to basically um, reaffirm, okay, I think that woods and trees need to be in this design, but why just because it came up in the word map? That’s, okay. That’s one check. That’s yes, they are there. They need to be there. Another one was because it was something Kelly mentioned. So that’s another check that’s like, okay, that’s great. There’s two things. So now I need to look into like the

Michelle: 30:11 What it does it mean?

Brandi: 30:12 Yeah, behind it. Especially because um, something that Kelly said in our conversation was that this album is like a little bit self-reflective, not necessarily for him but for a person listening to it and that it had like a lot of deep meaning. And so if, if I want this art to look like it has deep meaning, it needs to have deep meaning.

Michelle: 30:31 It’s like where do you go in your mind?

Brandi: 30:33 Right. And I mean I do this anyways. Um, but I don’t always go into the symbology stuff for every single thing I do, but this one felt appropriate. So I’m going to read the thing for trees and woods that I found in the same book. So trees was life in totality. So a whole life from beginning to end, reconciliation of opposites, um, up to heaven are down to Earth. So the roots are down below and thethe top, you know, the canopy of the tree is up high and trees also represent a journey.

Michelle: 31:01 Okay.

Brandi: 31:01 Which was another keyword in the word Map.

Michelle: 31:03 It works so well.

Brandi: 31:04 Yeah.

Michelle: 31:05 Unintentionally.

Brandi: 31:06 Yeah.

Michelle: 31:06 In the beginning.

Brandi: 31:07 In the beginning. Um, and then woods represent the deep unconscious. So stuff that we’re not even aware of.

Michelle: 31:15 Self-reflective.

Brandi: 31:16 If there’s woods with a clearing so you can see some sort of openness that represents like something spiritual or sacred. Um, and then thethe um, excuse me, it also represents like some sort of contact with God. Like, like, um, contact with the divine.

Michelle: 31:35 Yes.

Brandi: 31:35 If, you know, it’s like you are communing with God while you are in nature, which also sounds a little hippie. But if you think about it, it’s, it’s real. It’s like why we feel things when we’re out in the woods. It’s like, wow, there’s, there’s something about this

Michelle: 31:47 You feel super connected.

Brandi: 31:48 Yeah.

Michelle: 31:48 In a way that you just don’t in the city. I love the city, but right where you just don’t.

Brandi: 31:53 Yeah. It’s just different. It’s a different thing. So, um, that was all part of the research for this. Um, so from there I, I went into the colors, which honestly, were are already showing up in here. You heard talking about whites, and grays, and blue-grays and you know, I already had those in the word maps. So I found them through my research. They are already in the word map. So when I go back to my list of colors, then I go, okay, which ones did I find in my research that I had in my list.

Michelle: 32:27 Another check and another check.

Brandi: 32:28 And now I have my color palette, which ended up being

Michelle: 32:31 Gray.

Brandi: 32:31 Bluish gray, white and like some greens for the trees. But it was a cooler tone.

Michelle: 32:38 Yeah.

Brandi: 32:38 So there’s, there’s basically like a real quick synopsis of like how I gotto to Kelly’s art, and I did look at the art that he referenced that he liked. So I, that’s part of the research too, is looking at in member in the queue in the brief like, um, can you give me an example of art that you like.

Michelle: 32:59 And he did.

Brandi: 32:59 And your competition. And he did. And so I made sure to look at those things and nothing that I was doing or wanted to do, look to anything like that.

Michelle: 33:08 Which is great.

Brandi: 33:08 Um, so from this, um, let me make sure I’m not skipping any steps here. Um, oh, so part of the research thing that the next part, the next part of this is looking through all the books and marking them.

Michelle: 33:22 Okay.

Brandi: 33:23 Okay. So this you’ll understand why you do this. So I get those little tabbies, the little post-it tabby things. Um, and I keep, I basically keep them usually stacked at the like paste it into the back of the book so I can just grab one and put them there. And then when I’m done with that project I take ’em out and put it back.

Michelle: 33:37 Yeah.

Brandi: 33:38 Um, and so you go through this as this is part of your research you go through when you’ve got your concept, you’ve got like an idea on a direction visually. So you kind of have this rough idea. So this is where you’re like brainstorming in your head. Like what sort of look is this going to be? So I know I want trees, I know I want these kind of colors. But this part is like, what do I want the layout? Like what feel do I want?

Michelle: 34:01 Yeah.

Brandi: 34:02 So you’re just looking, looking, looking through books. You just sit down with books. You don’t have your sketchbook yet. You sit down with books.

Michelle: 34:08 Put the sketchbook far far away.

Brandi: 34:09 Far away.

Michelle: 34:10 Do not be tempted.

Brandi: 34:10 Yeah, there’s two more steps. There’s, there’s this step and then one more after this before you’re even allowed to touch that thing. So, um, you mark all the books and you stack them up. Um, I like to do this either in the afternoon or late at night because the next step is sleep. And I’ll explain why. Um, I put all the little tabbies then I go back through the books one more time and I look at all of the things I marked so that I have like a clear visual in my mind of what I looked at.

Michelle: 34:37 Yep.

Brandi: 34:38 Leave them there and you go to sleep.

Michelle: 34:42 Your brain does really incredible things when you sleep. I didn’t look into this until we actually talked about the research and sleep part a few years ago on this podcast, which you can go listen to if you want or you can listen now. Um, whatever you want.

Brandi: 34:55 Pause and go listen and come back.

Michelle: 34:56 Yeah. Whatever you want to do. Um, it’s really incredible what your brain can do while you sleep because while you sleep, what is your brain doing?

Brandi: 35:06 Solving problems.

Michelle: 35:06 It’s solving problems. So

Brandi: 35:08 And what do we do as designers?

Michelle: 35:10 Solve problems.

Brandi: 35:11 Solve problems.

Michelle: 35:11 Um, I had a friend who listened to that episode a few years ago, um, when it first came out and she, she was just listening. She’s not a designer, she is a creative. Um, she had been cast as in or as a role in Mary Poppins on theater and

Brandi: 35:29 Onstage.

Michelle: 35:29 On stage, musical theater. Um, and she was having the hardest time getting some of this footwork. She’s not a dancer. Um, she has a little bit of training but it’s not something she does. So she was having a really hard time getting some of this tap down and she practiced, practiced and practice and practice and was getting so frustrated and decided, you know what, I’m going to sleep because I hear that my brain does really cool things when I sleep. And she slept and she woke up in the morning and she had it down.

Brandi: 35:59 Isn’t that wild?

Michelle: 36:00 It’s so cool. Like, it’s so cool that our brains just put things together. Like you’re, you sleeping is not wasted time.

Brandi: 36:07 Right. And which, which is sort of like for me as a, as an enneagram three, I’m like, that’s great. That means I’m actually doing stuff when I sleep. Can I do that while I eat? Eating is such a waste of time.

Michelle: 36:23 What is food?

Brandi: 36:24 What is food do I need it, I don’t know. Um, yeah. So, um, so once you have the, I did forget one small thing that I do that’s like kind of important to this. When you have your little tabbies I usually have a pencil and I write what I like about the thing that I tapped.

Michelle: 36:40 Okay.

Brandi: 36:41 Because sometimes specific colors, sometimes it’s the type and if I just put a tabby

Michelle: 36:45 You don’t know what it is.

Brandi: 36:45 I don’t remember why I tabbed this necessarily all the time because it’s obviously not like I just liked this design, I’m going to copy it. It’s something about that thing that I want to take out. So you sleep. And like I said, I really liked doing research late in the afternoon or in the evening if you can help it because then you know, and also think about the problem as you are searching for your, your style references. That’s what this is the research is to find your style references. Um, think about what problem you’re trying to solve. So for me, for Kelly’s thing, it was trying to create the feeling of almost winter in a deep introspective way. And I wanted people to be able to have a feeling by looking at this artwork because you can’t always achieve that. It can look cool, but it won’t always feel like something. And especially with music, you want there to be that attachment by people because sometimes people choose a CD based solely on the

Michelle: 37:43 The artwork

Brandi: 37:43 Or a Spotify playlist or whatever based just on the cover and so

Michelle: 37:48 A book.

Brandi: 37:48 A book. Yeah. So it’s really, really important. So you sleep and you wake up and then you get to sketch and we will talk about sketching your ideas in the next episode.

Michelle: 38:01 Yay. How do you feel you did with your explaining of the research part?

Brandi: 38:03 I feel like it was pretty good. This is really interesting to me. I always loved this because, especially if it’s something that I don’t know about, like when I was doing that, I talked before about that tech company that I did, um, park lab where they dropped the kettle ball thing to test safety.

Michelle: 38:21 Oh yeah.

Brandi: 38:21 Like I had to do a lot of research into like that world of, of playground safety.

Michelle: 38:27 Yeah.

Brandi: 38:27 In order to get to this place.

Michelle: 38:29 Something you’re like, do I care about this?

Brandi: 38:32 I mean, and I, I guess I do. My kids play on playgrounds and so it was like this gives you the opportunity to learn. And so, um, I don’t remember, I don’t know. Lots of people have said this, but like the quote is from Chip Kid. He’s  legendary in my eyes. Um, book cover designer. Uh, he did an interview in this book by Debbie Millman called how to think like a great graphic designer. Um, and the quote says, a graphic designer has to function in the world. We need to know more than just typefaces and Pantone colors. Indeed. That’s the least of it. I learned just as much about design by studying psychology, philosophy, English lit, geology, art history, and yes, even ballroom dancing. And that is how I feel like that that resonates so deep within like my little design heart because it’s like designers don’t just make things look pretty. And this phase, the research phase is what differentiates us from so many other people, but also creative industries. And it really sets us apart from the kind of designers that work on fiber that just go, what do you want? Yeah, I can make that. It’s like, okay,

Michelle: 39:42 Nobody’s genie, nobody’s genie.

Brandi: 39:44 Yeah. I’m going to insert myself for this period of time into this world of whatever in this case symbology. And really, um, embracing like deep-seated feelings and introspection. Um, in other cases it’s in this weird world of tech that I don’t understand. There’s also, you know, theater and all the different things. And that’s what’s so exciting about what I do is that every concept can lead me to learn something new. And so designers are always learning. We’re always trying to figure things out. We are psychologists, we are artists, we are all these things. And I love that quote so much.

Michelle: 40:25 That’s perfect. That’s the perfect way to end it too. I love it.

Brandi: 40:29 So sleep on that.

Michelle: 40:30 Sleep on that.

Brandi: 40:31 So, um, next week will be a sabbatical episode. It will be, uh, uh, best hits from my design tip Tuesday, um, videos. So yeah, the sound might be weird, but it is,

together: 40:43 It is what it is.

Michelle: 40:45 As I always say, it is what it is. So we’ve hoped that we hope that you have enjoyed this. Brandy, I’m going to flip it on you. Where can people find us?

Brandi: 40:52 You can find us on all sorts of social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, sometimes Michelle’s on Twitter more than I am.

Michelle: 41:01 Not as much, but I just re-downloaded it and immediately wanted to delete it again.

Brandi: 41:05 I just, I really love it when I’m there and then I just forget about it.

Michelle: 41:09 Oh, see right now it’s just a bunch of political junk so I don’t even get on.

Brandi: 41:13 Oh, I don’t follow a lot of politics. It’s a lot of just creative.

Michelle: 41:15 Neither do I.

Brandi: 41:17 You didn’t think. Yeah. So you can follow us there. You can email us at brandy at brandi@brandisea.com You can spell my name.

Michelle: 41:25 Her name is spelled s as B. R. A. N. D. I. S. E. A. Brandi Sea.

Brandi: 41:31 And, um, again, small reminder, check our Patreon. Thank you so much to Vesperteen as always, for letting us, letting us use your music to define our feel for this podcast.

Michelle: 41:43 Thank you. Thank you, Colin. We appreciate it.

Brandi: 41:46 Yeah, we appreciate you.

Michelle: 41:47 Until next time.