This week we had the awesome opportunity to interview author Liz Fosslien about her book “No Hard Feelings”. Stay tuned for this incredible conversation and be sure to check out the book! 

Some great takeaways from our conversation with Liz Fosslien

• We are emotional creatures regardless of circumstance. Even in a professional setting, you can have emotions.

• There are 2 different types of conflict, Task conflict, and Personality conflict. Task conflict focuses on the idea whereas Personality conflict focuses on the person who had the idea. 

“Always try to focus on the idea as opposed to turning the conversation back on the person.”

• Remember you can feel all you want, but when it comes time to get other people involved, your feelings won’t be very helpful for the other person. 

“There’s usually some bit of useful information contained with a feeling, but it takes you being able to sit down, process that feeling, really examine it, try to understand the need that is driving it. And then you need to talk about the need, not the feeling.”

• Being a good leader has more to do with your emotional intelligence than your personality traits.
• Even little things like going out to dinner with your friends can help you have a sustainable career.

Questions We Ask Everyone!

1. What are you listening to/reading/watching right now? OR what is the last band or artist you listened to?

“Oh, I’m reading this book called An American Marriage and it’s fiction and it was one of Oprah’s book club picks. So sad, but highly recommended.”

2. Describe yourself in three words

“Coffee, Doodle, Feelings”

3. What is the first thing you do in when you wake up in the morning?

 “Oh, I checked my phone. Okay, something unique is I’ve eaten the same breakfast for seven years. It’s like a bowl of yogurt and then I have a granola bar that I crumble into it and I drink it and I eat that with a cup of coffee and it’s just like, it’s become this huge emotional comfort for me. Even if I’m traveling or I’m having a bad day somehow, just like always having this breakfast that I really like just makes me. It makes me feel really grounded when life gets crazy.”

4. What do you geek out about?

“I think I geek out about people just creating things. I’m like, I just really believed that I have. I feel like I have so many friends who are like, oh, you draw things. That’s like a skill that I would never have and I think some people are naturally more like it’s easier for them to pick up creative skills but I just think everyone can be creative and so like just literally like put your pen on a piece of paper and move your arm around.”

5. Morning, Noon, or Night?

“Morning.” 

6. When are you most productive?

“I’m more productive in the morning, but not always, but I would say some days I have this like really weird burst of productivity at like 9:00 PM. Um, yeah. I don’t know where that comes from.”

7. Apple or Android?

“Apple, but the updates are irritating and I hate that I can’t charge my phone and have headphones in at the same time.”

8. What superhero do you relate to most and why?

“Okay. So, I don’t know if it’s a superhero, but I recently watched Moana. And I think the soundtrack is amazing. And then also kind of just her, like, especially as a female, taking a risk and finding out who she is and then realizing that she has all this amazing potential within her.”

9. What drives you nuts? 

“Bubble popping. Like when I’m sitting somewhere and someone starts chewing gum and popping bubbles in rapid succession. Everything. Everything. It drives me crazy. So in Singapore, and I’ve heard in Singapore, gum chewing is illegal and I’m kind of on that board with that.”

10. What would your mom tell her friends that you do?

“Oh, I have no idea. I’m going to say I think she can now be like she wrote a book. So that’s something that she can tell. Before now I have to ask. I’m sure it was something like she works on the West Coast and interviews people and writes things.”

11. How do you want to be remembered?

“I think I would like to be remembered like partly just for having art that people to on an emotional level and then also as being someone who just makes it okay to feel bad sometimes and they’re like, that’s just part of the human experience and just helps people see that they should still treat themselves with kindness even in moments that are overwhelming or hard.”

A BIG thank you to Liz for chatting with us, and to both her and Mollie for giving us the opportunity to read and review their book! Good work ladies! 

The book No Hard Feelings by Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy will be released on February 5, so please be sure to check it out.  

Thanks for Your Feedback!

 @keegan.clark on Instagram: 

“I just discovered your podcast and have been listening to it. I’m on episode 14 right now. I followed the playlist a little while ago. I’m actually a graphic design student at Iowa State University and loved listening to you guys. I learned so much and have been so inspired by this podcast. I love how passionate Brandi is about graphic design and how Michelle is so interested and eager to learn. Thank you for this podcast.”

Find us on all forms of social media via @BrandiSea on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and you can email us any burning questions you want Brandi to answer on an episode at brandi@brandisea.com.

THANK YOU to the ultra-talented  Vesperteen (Colin Rigsby) for letting us use his song (“Shatter in The Night”) as the intro and outtro for every episode of Design Speaks.

Transcription

Brandi: 00:00:00 Hey guys, I’m Brandi Sea.
Michelle: 00:00:02 And I’m Michelle.
Brandi: 00:00:02 And you’re listening to episode 77 of design speaks.
Michelle: 00:00:06 Yes, correct.
Brandi: 00:00:08 Sorry. Full disclosure, I like had something in my throat and was trying not to burp on the air. So I stretched it out.
Michelle: 00:00:19 That was very kind. Well you are in for a really great episode. I’m really excited about this one. Brandi, can you tell us a little bit about it?
Brandi: 00:00:26 Yeah. So I, I got, I get emails from various people, but honestly I get a lot of, like really weird junk requests. So I got this email a little while back, um, and it looked like, is this for real or is this not for real? It was basically from a woman named Liz and her, um, her partner Mollie and it was asking us if we would be willing to check out their book that they were writing, um, that it’s not out yet. It’s called No Hard Feelings about emotions at work and everything and kind of sent me a small snippet of it. And um, I was like, okay, I don’t know what this is, is this legit? And so what did a little research thought was legit sent it to Michelle was like, do we want to start doing, you know, this was kind of what started our, should we maybe do more book reviews? Um, and she was like, yeah, this sounds good. So, um, I wrote them back and I said, yes, we would love to do this. They sent us a sample, a couple of sample copies of the book so we could have it.
Michelle: 00:01:30 Thank you.
Brandi: 00:01:30 I know, which means it makes me feel super special because
Michelle: 00:01:34 I feel like we should frame our books.
Brandi: 00:01:35 I know.
Michelle: 00:01:36 And put them on the wall.
Brandi: 00:01:37 On every page is like watermarked and it says not for uncorrected proof for distribution. So it doesn’t even have like a back part with like the author and the description. It looks like it’s sorta taped along the side. It’s a prototype basically of the book for our review. Um, when I got the book in the mail, it came with a letter from Penguin House publishers.
Michelle: 00:01:59 It’s legit, you guys!
Brandi: 00:02:01 Saying like, hello editor slash producer or whatever, here’s all the info on the authors. And here’s what this book is about. We would love to, you know, have the honor of you reviewing it and I was just like.
Michelle: 00:02:12 So cool.
Brandi: 00:02:14 It’s so cool.
Michelle: 00:02:15 So today we are going to be interviewing Liz. Oh shoot. I don’t know how say her
Brandi: 00:02:20 Fosslien?
Michelle: 00:02:20 Fossilien, Fossilien?
Brandi: 00:02:22 We didn’t ask her how to say her name.
Michelle: 00:02:22 Man.
Brandi: 00:02:23 Now I feel bad
Michelle: 00:02:23 Liz, how do we say your name?
Brandi: 00:02:24 how do I feel bad.
Michelle: 00:02:25 Feel we have messed up as interviewers. How do we say your last name? Anyway, she’s incredible. This interview, this interview is honestly for everyone. I’m not saying this because I want you to listen. I’d like you to listen, but you’re already listening. So this is our one passed this along. It’s not like with any like malintent that I want you to pass it along, like see feelings matter in the workplace. That’s what this book is about. No Hard Feelings. Take a listen to us.
Into dude: 00:02:54 Welcome to Design Speaks. This lovely podcast is brought to you by a graphic design geek and a regular human being a.k.a a non-designer. We’re here to chat about music, pop culture, cool places or basically whatever we feel is relevant.
Brandi: 00:03:14 So as you know, our podcast is all about design and creativity and I’m kind of staying motivated and stuff. So my first question, just really briefly, I want our audience to know like how we kind of found each other. You, you are a listener of the podcast, is that correct?
Liz : 00:03:34 Yeah. And I also read your blog and I’m actually not even sure how I found you. I think it was one of those magical Internet link link link link and then I was like, oh, I want to stay here.
Michelle: 00:03:47 One of those rabbit trails.
Brandi: 00:03:49 You found me down the rabbit hole. That makes me so happy.
Michelle: 00:03:51 I like that lot. They work.
Brandi: 00:03:55 It really works. Um, I was so thrilled to get the email from you. Um, when were, you said that you’re a fan of the show and to that you were interested in having us check out your new book.
Michelle: 00:04:08 What an honor. Thank you so much. We do appreciate that.
Brandi: 00:04:12 We felt very flattered and very honored. You have the, you have the honor of being our very first official like book review.
Liz : 00:04:21 Whoa, that’s amazing.
Brandi: 00:04:22 I mean, not that we don’t read and talk about books, but this is like, hey, someone actually cares what we think.
Michelle: 00:04:29 Can you first just tell us about this book? Your name is Liz. You coauthored this book No Hard Feelings along with, her name is Mollie West Duffy. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about the book before we begin?
Liz : 00:04:42 Yeah, so the book kind of the main idea is just that we are emotional creatures regardless of circumstance. And so what that means is this notion that a lot of people have and that I definitely had at the beginning of my career, which is that you should check your emotions at the door and that being professional means you don’t have any feelings. You’re just purely rational all the time. That’s like biologically impossible. And so since we’re going to have feelings at work instead of just pretending they don’t exist or always suppressing them, it’s time that we really acknowledged them and then figure out how to deal with them. And sometimes that means kind of keeping them to ourselves and examining them. And other times that means expressing them and talking about them with other people. And so the book is a guidebook for when you have a feeling, how do you kind of hold it up to the light and examine it.
Michelle: 00:05:38 I really appreciated the topic of this book when we got it. I didn’t know what to expect, so when I got it and we kind of read through the summary of it in the email you sent us and then I started reading the book. I was really thankful because I, like you started out in the workforce just kind of like, you know, I leave all my emotional baggage at home and then I get through work and I just do it and I leave emotions behind. And I kind of prided myself on that honestly. Um,
Brandi: 00:06:06 Especially as a woman,.
Michelle: 00:06:08 Especially as a woman.
Brandi: 00:06:09 Yeah like I can leave that stuff at home.
Michelle: 00:06:10 Like look at me women power, you know, but this brought hope, this brought light to hold a whole lot that I feel like I’ve been kind of thinking about already, but just kind of solidified some of the things that I have been thinking and I’ve been noticing throughout the workplace already.
Liz : 00:06:29 That’s so awesome to hear. Yeah. I think, I mean one of the biggest moments for me was I, I was the same. And that meant also like early on in my career when I did have a really strong feeling at work, be it anxiety or even just excitement, which is a wonderful feeling if you’re excited about your work. I felt like I shouldn’t share that with anyone. Um, and that. And so I felt extremely isolated and I was walking around thinking that I was the only person that’s in that.
Brandi: 00:06:55 It’s that always how it is?
Liz : 00:06:55 Totally.
Brandi: 00:06:55 We always think we’re the only one.
Liz : 00:07:00 Yeah. And Yeah. And then once you start talking about it, like in the process of writing this book and even talking to like my friends with whom I talked about work for years in some cases, so much stuff came out that we had never addressed. And I think a lot of it is just kind of creating this implicit, I guess with a book explicit permission of like, it’s okay, you can feel and you can still be successful and competent and like a wonderful able human being.
Michelle: 00:07:29 Oh, that’s awesome.
Brandi: 00:07:30 So speaking of like talking to your colleagues and your friends and everything, um, what would you say is. What’s your process behind getting this whole thing kind of off the ground?
Liz : 00:07:42 Yeah, so a lot of it. I mean I think it started for both Mollie and my coauthor and then for me with a lot of introspection, which was if I like, given we both had experiences early on where we felt like we couldn’t talk about our emotions and then when we were really anxious because we weren’t processing through that, like our anxiety started to manifest physically. So Mollie had like her, her right eyes started to go numb and then I started to have really bad migraines and I think a lot of it was just like this high-stress environment and having like not knowing at all how to handle that and not feeling safe reaching out to talk to anyone, even friends about that. Um, so really like the book started with what would have helped me when I was in that situation. And that’s, I mean the book is also partly illustrated. And so I think the illustrations were this huge. The idea behind those is that you should open this book and it should feel like comforting and fun and like these are your friends that are explaining something to you because so many business books I think you open and it’s like a wall of text and there can be really useful information in that, but it’s not presented in a way that like immediately puts you at ease and since the book is about feelings, we also wanted it to feel really good on feel like warm and empathetic so that you could walk away from it, like understanding that it’s time that you treat yourself with kindness to um, so that was how we thought about what the book layout should be like and how to incorporate the illustrations. And then we went to, we start. We did just like a complete, well maybe not complete. I think it’s impossible, but we tried to read as much of the academic literature as possible because we really wanted to give people advice that was backed by science and that we had complete confidence in. I’m like, if I tell someone I think this might help you, I want to be really sure that it will actually help them. And then really trying to like again, I think so much of the stuff that comes out of academia, it’s in these like really long research papers that maybe, you know, they’re like, it’s, it’s hard to like sit down and read through all that and then to pull out like what am I supposed to do with this data? So we, we tried to like be like, here’s the one thing that you need to know from these four papers.
Brandi: 00:10:09 Especially as a visual learner. That was literally the first note that I made when I started reading this book was I love the quirky and humorous illustration
Michelle: 00:10:17 And I think it did exactly as you said. It made me feel like welcome. And I kind of understood a little bit more of the vibe of the book when I, when I was reading along because the illustrations just got my humor so perfectly. It was great.
Liz : 00:10:31 Oh yeah. That’s so nice to hear. Um, that was really the goal. So to hear that that’s how it made you feel makes me really happy.
Brandi: 00:10:40 I think we’re going to use the word feel and feelings a lot.
Michelle: 00:10:43 Lots of all the feels.
Brandi: 00:10:45 Feel feelings. I love that you say that all throughout the book. It’s like feel feelings. I’m like, that’s the best. I like that.
Michelle: 00:10:52 Speaking of feelings, and we’re all women right here along this, in this conversation, I do have the question and maybe you have, maybe you have not thought about this, but um, how do you think the public is gonna respond when this book comes out and it’s all about feelings in the workplace and they’re like, oh, this is helpful, but it’s written by two women. It’s like, oh, women are so emotional, blah, blah, blah.
Brandi: 00:11:16, Of course, they’re going to write a book about feelings.
Michelle: 00:11:18 Yeah. So have you thought about that and what it like? I Dunno how it might affect positively or negatively.
Liz : 00:11:25 Yeah, I think so. I mean one of the biggest things was that was why in part we started with a lot of academic research when we actually set out to like gather information for the book.
Michelle: 00:11:37 So smart,
Liz : 00:11:38 Yeah
Brandi: 00:11:39 Throw the logic and all the guys.
Liz : 00:11:42 No, and I think, I mean I used to work, I was an economic consultant and I did like a lot of stats analysis and so I think I had also worked with a lot of people were I knew if was like, you should feel feelings. They would be like, excuse me. And so I wanted like a molly and I both really wanted in the book that it presents a case that’s really backed again by the science. Um, and so I think also when you just sit someone down and you say like, look, we’re not saying that every single feeling you should just throw out into the workplace or like you should become a feelings firehose, but doesn’t it make sense that if someone is happy at their job, they’re going to produce more, they’re going to be more motivated, they’re not going to leave after a year. And these are all things that like have clear financial benefits. Um, and so that’s something that we try to stress over and over in the book. Um, and then the other thing, speaking of design is we, the book is in two colors and so
Brandi: 00:12:46 Yes, I love it.
Liz : 00:12:46 Thank you. Um, when we went to pick some colors black and then when we went to pick the second color we went through like a ton of different colors and we specifically chose blue so that it, I mean blue is, you know,
Brandi: 00:13:01 It’s calming
Liz : 00:13:01 Like has been associated with boys, but
Brandi: 00:13:03 it’s also a business-y color.
Liz : 00:13:06 Right. So we wanted the book even though it’s illustrated to still feel like something
Brandi: 00:13:11 Professional?
Liz : 00:13:11 That could be frequency. Yeah, right.
Brandi: 00:13:15 You’re like, there’s cartoon But it’s professional you guys.
Liz : 00:13:18 Yeah. But it’s blue, so, therefore, you can look at it.
Brandi: 00:13:22 I applaud as a color psychology enthusiast. I applaud your use of color.
Liz : 00:13:27 Thank you.
Brandi: 00:13:29 So, um, you talk about emotional intelligence and vulnerability. I’m in the very beginning. Would you say that these are the best way to start the conversation about emotions in the workplace?
Liz : 00:13:40 I think it really depends on your workplace. Um, so I would say like if you work in a very traditional company, maybe not like, it might be better to start out with kind of what I just said, which is, you know, we want, we want to reduce turnover or we want to have people be more productive or innovative, so innovative. So I think the language that you with which you talk about emotions depends so much on like the emotional environment that you’re in.
Brandi: 00:14:10 Right.
Liz : 00:14:11 That said, I think like at a tech company, emotional intelligence or vulnerability might be great places to start because they’re a little bit more on board. I think a lot of tech companies are like, we’re a family and we want you to bring your whole self to work. Um, so I would say it’s really important to kind of assess like the emotional colors.
Brandi: 00:14:31 Yeah. I was just going to say, must have a lot to do with the culture. So, um, something that stood out to me when I was reading about culture in the book was this phrase emotional contagion and how, um, how that works. Can you kind of elaborate on that a little bit?
Liz : 00:14:46 Yeah. So emotional contagion is what psychologists call basically how we catch each other’s feelings. And so I’ve, I, I remember in one at one place I worked, I sat next to someone who would get so stressed out and like, you know, her leg would start juggling and she’d be like hunched over his laptop and like just, she never said anything but just those non verbal signals.
Michelle: 00:15:11 But body language is everything.
Liz : 00:15:12 Yeah. And like, and I just, I would get so stressed sitting next to her because I was just like picking up on that and internalizing it. And so it’s not just in person. It’s also like over text message or emails. Like if you’ve ever been arguing with someone on text message and they start typing back like k period or they suddenly take like half an hour to respond to everything. There’s a strong emotional signal in that that you pick up on and then usually you start to feel bad. And then the craziest thing that we have research we stumbled across was that emotions can go viral. So if I have a really bad day at work and I come home and I’m really grumpy towards my partner, we go to sleep angry at each other and then he wakes up the next day and is grumpy and then he goes into his office and then starts to make everyone there grumpy. So emotions can like jump from office to office.
Michelle: 00:16:06 Yikes. Yikes. Yikes.
Brandi: 00:16:07 That is such a crazy thought. Thinking about, you know, when I, when I read that in the book, I was like, man, I feel like this applies, you know, in, in parenting also, like if, if you’re, if you’re grumpy with your kids in the morning, like they’re going to probably go to school and be grumpy with their friends and their teacher. And um, it, it is kind of like, it’s just like a virus and that’s, that’s kind of a mindblowing thought.
Liz : 00:16:29 Yeah.
Michelle: 00:16:30 Um, have you ever worked in a place, and I’m saying this like you wrote the book, so you probably have, have you ever worked in a place that you have had to kind of assess that emotional, emotional culture or maybe the lack of an emotional culture? Um, and then kind of bring light to what is missing in your workplace.
Liz : 00:16:49 Yeah, I mean I would say kind of the first job I had ever, like the first big job was again, like more in economics and statistics. And so I think there it just wasn’t like, I think people also in those fields tend to not be as emotionally expressive. And so at the time I, like I didn’t have the language or any of the understanding to like figure out why in that environment I felt like I couldn’t be my full self. Um, and I just always felt like, yeah, like the crazy one, the one that wanted to do artistic stuff or the woman had all these feelings and like nobody else had feelings
Michelle: 00:17:30 Yeah.
Liz : 00:17:30 And I think that they actually all did and it’s funny like sit after I left that job after a while because I just realized it wasn’t sustainable for me and I was just like, I am not motivated. I just don’t feel comfortable. I don’t think this is a place where I’m going to succeed long term. So it doesn’t make sense for me to stay here anymore. Um, and then since then, I’ve become actually a lot closer with some of the people that I worked with at the time and have figured out that like they were also anxious also had all these feelings.
Michelle: 00:18:01 You weren’t alone once again.
Liz : 00:18:03 Totally. Yeah. And, but it, at the time I just didn’t even know how to start that conversation or when to have it or know that like I could have it or even I think realize that other people probably were feeling the same things. Um, so since then I think in every job I’ve, and this is kind of the advice I would give to people too, is it’s really great to have a confidant at work, which is just someone that you gravitate towards and feel comfortable talking about or talking with. Um, and it’s nice because they usually, they just get it, you know, even if I have like a really loving, supportive partner and there’s just some things about work that he just won’t get because he’s not like dealing with these people every day and he doesn’t like, you know, like the little things that can actually drive you crazy,
Michelle: 00:18:51 No, totally.
Brandi: 00:18:51 Like really little to him because he’s not like the ones sitting there listening to someone like click their pen 1500 times a day.
Michelle: 00:18:57 Oh my gosh, typing really loudly.
Liz : 00:19:02 Yeah, so I think like just kind of figuring out in a workplace like who do you connect with and then I think this comes. Then it comes back to vulnerability, like having the courage to say, Hey I’m stressed today and then usually you will get something in response and then you can kind of go from there. Um, so I think like regardless of the environment that you’re in, like I would say just even start like go to lunch with someone, like find someone random and go to lunch with them. Like, ask them to coffee. Especially in the first six months at a job. It’s, it’s you’re expected to kind of be new and exploring and so really take advantage of that opportunity to kind of in a super non-awkward way, just like get to know as many people as you can and then you know, in some, in moments when it makes sense, like be vulnerable about what you’re feeling.
Michelle: 00:19:49 And I think that’s the point of this book that you guys wrote is to give people even the verbiage of how they feel and what they’re looking at in their workplace and how they are and how others might be feeling as well.
Liz : 00:20:03 Yeah, I mean a big thing that we just like, I think the biggest thing that I would want people to take away from this is to realize that everyone around you has feelings. Um, and even like the chief financial officer at your company that only looks at spreadsheets all day is feeling things. And so I think just starting from there, if we all learn to do that, that already puts us way ahead of where a lot of people are.
Brandi: 00:20:30 That’s great. I love that. I was just thinking you, you mentioned feeling safe and finding someone to kind of commiserate with, um, this idea of psychological safety. Um, first of all, I think you need to make actual physical, psychological safety signs that people can like put up in the brainstorming room.
Michelle: 00:20:51 Yes!
Brandi: 00:20:51 Um, so in the context of like a brainstorming session, what does psychological safety look like? Obviously, there’s a lot of creatives and designers and those kinds of people and a brainstorming can be, can be a rough place for feelings.
Liz : 00:21:10 Yeah. So I think a really psychologically safe brainstorm is when you feel like you have an idea and you just immediately throw it out and you don’t stop to think like, well, what if people think I’m stupid? What if it’s a bad idea? You just feel like you can put anything out and that people will accept it and like think about it and that you won’t be judged for having taken that risk. Because I think it is risky sometimes to like just whatever comes to mind, like throw it out. And the reason it’s so important, especially in a brainstorm is the point of having multiple people in the room with like different backgrounds and different skills and experiences that even like frameworks with which they’re approaching, whatever problem you’re trying to solve is that they all have these different experiences and feelings and frameworks and so if, if you don’t allow, if you don’t create a space in which people can bring all of those things to the front, then you might as well just have like five of the exact same person in the room because you’re not getting what you really want in that brainstorm and so much with.
Brandi: 00:22:16 Collaboration.
Liz : 00:22:17 Totally. Yeah. And like so much of this comes down to really small actions. So I have a friend, um, and I have since told him how to reword the question, but he used to always be like, oh, of course, you’ve heard of so and so or like, surely you seen this website.
Michelle: 00:22:35 You’re like, no I haven’t.
Brandi: 00:22:35 But you don’t want to say it.
Liz : 00:22:38 That makes it feel like I just was like, oh no. I guess obviously I should have as opposed to being like, Hey, do you know this? And that. I think again, it’s like this really small changes that have such an impact on whether someone feels safe being like, no, I don’t know that, can you tell me? Um, and that makes a really big difference.
Michelle: 00:22:57 I have been on both sides of giving an idea and it just totally, you know, it, it was awful
Brandi: 00:23:07 Tanking.
Michelle: 00:23:07 It tanked so fast. But I’ve also seen people give ideas that tank really fast and me hypocritically thinking like double standard thinking that’s a terrible idea. Why would you even say that out loud? Um, so I’ve been on both sides and I’ve also seen conflict on both sides. So what would you say is a way to manage conflict in collaboration?
Liz : 00:23:32 Yeah. So in the book, we split out between two types of conflict. So there’s task conflict and that’s really like, you think we should paint the wall red and I think we should paint the wall blue and that’s where, where you’re in conflict about what color the walls should be. And then there’s personality conflict and what happens when we actually start to like fight each other’s personalities. So that’s if you say like, I want to paint the wall red and I say I think it should be blue. Why do you always suggest [the color] red? Your ideas are always stupid.
Brandi: 00:24:02 It just got personal.
Liz : 00:24:04 Yeah. Right. And so task conflict, which again is like the blue versus red. If you can navigate that without having it turned into like a personal attack, it’s actually usually really healthy because we might figure out like, oh actually we should paint the wall purple, which is a blend of both. And then that’s like the better the better version of the wall and then we’re both happy and, and ultimately the room looks way better. But again you really want to avoid making it personal. And so I think one way also for like for you to feel better and the other person to feel better is you can get curious and you can say like, why do you think the wall should be painted red? Um, and then that’s a way to like explain and maybe you get a better understanding of what the person is feeling. But again, always trying to focus on the idea as opposed to like ever turning the conversation back on the person.
Michelle: 00:24:54 So good. That’s so good. I, my mind just is like, oh, obviously, but I would have never thought of that on my own
Brandi: 00:25:01 Yeah part of this is definitely. Just like
Michelle: 00:25:04 This is like a therapy session.
Brandi: 00:25:07 Yes. Um, so the other thing I was thinking about in regards to collaboration and working with other people and the culture and everything, I wrote down this quote that you said to focus less on your own importance and more on those around you. Um, do you think that um, how does that play into like the introvert, extrovert thing, whereas an introvert might think that they are kind of focusing less on their own importance, um, when actually, you know, it’s detrimental to them.
Liz : 00:25:35 Yeah. Yeah. So I am like a very probably very obvious introvert. Like I, my partner’s an extreme extrovert. And so you can tell like when we go to parties or events together, I’m ready to leave after like an hour and a half and I always turn to find him
Michelle: 00:25:53 That’s a a good time
Brandi: 00:25:53 I’m like, no you haven’t been there long enough! It’s just warming up.
Liz : 00:25:55 It’s the perfect time after an hour and a half.
Michelle: 00:26:01 I’m an introvert so I feel you.
Liz : 00:26:04 I’ll scan the room and find him and he’s like, just getting another drink, like ready to meet 100 new people. So yeah, I think this idea of like get curious about the people around you, it’s really just about having an honest and open discussion about your differences. Um, so I think, you know, in the case of like you want to leave an event early and then the extrovert doesn’t. I think it’s, it’s negative when you don’t know that. And so if you like before the party ever happens, sit down and say like, Hey, my preference is that I get exhausted after like two hours. And so I’d really like leave because then it just starts being like too much for me and I get overwhelmed and then I’m like tired the next day. And then the other person says like, Hey, I love to stay at parties. Like I get a lot of energy from meeting other people. This is my happy place. And then I think it’s so much easier to be like, okay, why don’t you stay and I’ll go home.
Michelle: 00:27:01 Right.
Brandi: 00:27:02 And I’ll really be okay. I’ll be okay.
Michelle: 00:27:03 Like no hard feelings.
Liz : 00:27:07 Right, exactly. I think just having these conversations once in a while before you’re actually in like this area that cause could cause tension because I think in the moment then like after two hours I’m cranky and then I’m just going to be like, I need to go. Why don’t you let me leave? Like, what is wrong with you?
Brandi: 00:27:24 And then you’re angry.
Liz : 00:27:25 Yeah. As opposed to like both of us having this understanding of we’re just two different people have different needs. I’m going to respect my needs and you’re going to respect yours. Fine. And it’s not like a personal thing that I’m leaving after two hours and you want to stay. It’s just that we’re different.
Michelle: 00:27:41 Speaking of kind of being an introvert, I, and maybe this doesn’t apply to you at,
Brandi: 00:27:46 That’s Michelle. She’s the introvert, I’m the extrovert.
Michelle: 00:27:50 Um, which is why I do anything because of Brandi. What were your hesitations in co-authoring a book with someone? Um, is this something that you just been wanting to do or was there anything that you’re like, hmm, maybe I should not because what were your hesitations?
Liz : 00:28:08 So I think Mollie and I were actually really good friends before we started writing the book and we still are.
Brandi: 00:28:18 I’m like, oh you were? uh oh! no wonder she’s not on this interview. Just kidding.
Liz : 00:28:25 Yeah, that came out wrong. I would say we were, we were nervous that like suddenly switching from a personal to a somewhat professional relationship would like, would change our friendship or might even like ruin it. I think there are a lot of stories of people who tried to work with someone that they really get along within their personal lives and then they just never talk again. Um, but we tried to put some pretty solid foundations in place or not maybe processes, so every week we would get. So the other thing to note is that Mollie lives in New York and then I live in Berkeley, which is like 30 minutes outside of San Francisco. So we’re on total opposite coasts. Um, and so what we realized pretty early on is that we were interacting with so much more than we ever had, but we had lost track of like what was actually going on in the other person’s life because I felt like Mollie’s in my inbox 24 slash seven. So it seems like we have this really good connection. And then I think it was about a month or two into writing the book. I was like, wow, like what is, what’s going on? Like
Michelle: 00:29:34 How are you?
Liz : 00:29:35 Exactly. So then we started doing every weekend we would get on the phone, we would for 20 minutes we could not talk about the book, we could only talk about our personal lives. And that did two things. I think getting out of email helped so much. There’s so many chances when you’re just emailing with someone to like misunderstand what they’re saying
Michelle: 00:29:58 intonation is not there.
Liz : 00:30:01 Totally so get on the phone and then like actually carving time for us to just like be friends again. Totally outside of the book. And then one thing that we did that definitely came out of my, like, you know, previous spreadsheet self was we created the spreadsheet that was like 10 things about how we were feeling. So it was, there’s the feeling word again that was like, I feel really good about my contribution to the book. I feel really good about the other person’s contribution. I’m anxious, I’m sad, just like all these different things. And then. So if I was filling it out on a scale of zero to 10, 10 being the highest, I would fill out how I was feeling. So let’s say I felt like really good about my contribution. I would write 10 and then I would fill out how I thought Mollie was feeling. So I would be like, I think Mollie feels really good about my contribution to 10. Um, and then we would switch and we would see like if there was a big gap between the numbers that we had put in that meant that we were miscommunicating. So I remember there was one week where I thought Mollie felt great about my contribution and she felt like a five out of 10 and so that was a big signal to me that like there was something that was going on that I had missed and that we needed to talk about.
Brandi: 00:31:16 Was it you or her to not take offense to someone having a lower number or a lower scale?
Liz : 00:31:26 Um
Brandi: 00:31:27 Or was it just like a really great jumping off point for communication?
Liz : 00:31:31 So I think when you see a low number or when you get critical feedback, I think it’s just natural that it always feels bad.
Michelle: 00:31:43 It’s like going on the defense immediately, but you have to check yourself.
Liz : 00:31:46 Yeah. So I think it’s, it’s just like kind of letting yourself have that knee-jerk, like what is this? How could this happen? Response. And then being like, okay, that I need to like, I need to know this to have a good relationship to like get, get those, make this project be great. Um, so it, it does require you to kind of take a step back and like you said, just get over that initial knee-jerk reaction and then, and then force yourself to see it as like, this is a good opportunity for growth. And, and also kind of think too about like, this is a person that I care about and that cares about me. Um, one of my old bosses, he would always say the person that like your friend that cares about you, they will point out when you have spinach in your teeth and someone who doesn’t care about you, we’ll let you go the whole evening with spinach in your teeth because they just don’t want to go through that uncomfortable moment with you.
Brandi: 00:32:39 Oh man, that makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. Um, so you said, you said feedback. In the book, you talk about feedback and critique and um, I have, I have a couple of questions about that. So my first question is, um, you said that people tend to accept feedback from a quote, “expert” better than they would, you know, a non-expert. What would you be able to define for us what your findings were on what an expert even is?
Liz : 00:33:07 Yeah. So an expert is someone who has had a lot of experience with the problem that you’re trying to solve. Um, so you know, like, so let’s say you’re designing something, just someone who has maybe worked on a similar project for a long time before. Um, and so I think it’s, I can’t give like a very specific definition, but it’s, it’s like a mentor-esque type person who just has like some level of knowledge that might be more than yours or is like pretty high in a certain field. And the reason that we bring that up in the book is that just any person has a tendency, especially when they’re struggling to turn to like a friend and ask them for help. But sometimes, especially if it’s like a technical problem, your friend actually isn’t going to give you the best advice.
Michelle: 00:33:55 Right?
Liz : 00:33:55 Um, and so like whatever feedback they’re giving you, it can be wrong. You know, like if I’m, if I’m working on a design project and I, and I asked like a statistician about color stuff, he’s just, he might be like my best friend in the world, but he’s not going to give me good advice.
Brandi: 00:34:11 He’ll be like, I like that one cause it’s my favorite color.
Liz : 00:34:14 Yeah. And he might really support me emotionally because we’re friends still not going to
Brandi: 00:34:20 But it’s not helping solve the problem.
Liz : 00:34:22 Yeah.
Brandi: 00:34:22 Also love the cookie feedback illustration chart thing, like the Oreo and all that stuff. That’s like my favorite. But um, can you, can you tell me a little bit more about the C.O.I.N.S.? Um, thing and feedback and critique and what’s involved and the benefit of that.
Liz : 00:34:38 Yeah. So that’s Mollie works at Ideo, which is this global innovation
Brandi: 00:34:42 Love Ideo.
Liz : 00:34:44 Yeah. Lots of how to design like a workplace and make it feel great at every moment of any day and so. Yeah. So C.O.I.N.S. Stands for context, observation, impact, next, stay and on a, on a big scale. It’s really just about communicating to the person that I’m about to give you critical feedback. I’m giving it to you because I believe that you can make the changes necessary to be amazing. Um, and then like giving them really specific feedback and then figuring out like what the action plan is to go from like getting the feedback to how to implement it. Um, and I think that’s a great framework, I think one of the biggest issues, especially actually with women that research shows is that women tend to get much more vague feedback than men. So a man might like, you know, the websites that you designed, the sidebar isn’t working or like the background color is too jarring. Can we find a more muted color whereas a woman might hear the website that you designed, it’s just like not really working for me. Can you make it more fun? Um, and I think like probably every designer has gotten like this where it’s like, I don’t know what fun means to you.
Michelle: 00:35:59 Right.
Brandi: 00:36:02 The word feeling though in design can be a really frustrating thing because they can just say it just doesn’t feel right and then you just want to like run your head into a wall.
Liz : 00:36:12 Yeah. So C.O.I.N.S. is a way of like putting like forcing structure around feedback so that the person cannot just be like, this doesn’t feel right. They have to give you like something that you can immediately figure out how to work on.
Brandi: 00:36:29 Like is this trademarked because I think I might use this on some clients.
Liz : 00:36:34 You’re, I think you’re welcome to use it.
Brandi: 00:36:36 Sweet! Thank you. I’m so excited about this. That was really just my ulterior motive. Just kidding.
Liz : 00:36:42 Yeah. What’s, what’s like the funniest or I guess funniest slash most frustrating piece of feedback you’ve ever gotten?
Brandi: 00:36:49 Oh Gosh. Oh Man. Put me on the spot. You’re not allowed to be questioned. What is she? She’s just flipped the script. I don’t know. I think um, I think I’ve been asked to make it feel more bubbly in regards to something like a, like a, like a fall festival. I’m like,
Liz : 00:37:15 Oh, yeah.
Michelle: 00:37:17 It’s fall? What are you talking about?
Brandi: 00:37:17 What does bubbly feel like to you that just doesn’t even. That’s like mixing metaphors just doesn’t even work
Michelle: 00:37:25 That generally means they don’t know what they want. So.
Brandi: 00:37:27 Yeah, I think just ultimately the most frustrating thing is when people say it just doesn’t feel right. Um, I, I’ve talked, I’ve actually talked a lot and you’ve probably if you’ve been listening to, you obviously have heard me talk about educated intuition and I liked that you were, you were talking about like feelings and listening to your gut being a science. Um, because I think that ultimately when. Oh Gosh, I’m so sorry, is it time to pick up, pick up my kids, which I already did today. Sorry about that. Basically what I’m getting at is like the most frustrating thing is when people say that it just doesn’t feel right or when students say they chose something just because it did feel right, but they don’t actually have an answer. They’re just using their feelings kind of as a crutch instead of, you know, having that education behind their feelings, like the whole science thing. So I loved that you talked about that. It was very reassuring to my whole concept of like, you can’t just feel like your feelings, you have to be educated on a level. Is that kind of what you, I mean, that’s kind of what I thought you were getting at without it being a science sound. Right? See I flipped it back on you.
Liz : 00:38:39 Yeah. No, it’s very much like if something feels in your bones wrong or right, that’s. You should listen to that. It could, it might be an important signal, but yeah, like you can’t, that’s not what you can tell someone else because it’s just not useful for them at all. And so it’s really about taking the time to sit down and say like, okay, this feels, let’s say it feels really wrong or I’m having a strong negative reaction to this option. Why is it that I’m afraid? Is it that it makes me anxious? Is that that like I just don’t think I’m going to succeed in this position. You know, in, in
Brandi: 00:39:15 The color purple traumatizes you.
Liz : 00:39:17 It’s just like the client isn’t going to love this. So there’s usually some bit of useful information contained with a feeling, but it takes you being able to like to sit down, process that feeling, really examine it, try and understand like the need that is driving it. And then you need to talk about the need, not the feeling.
Brandi: 00:39:37 Oh, I love that.
Michelle: 00:39:39 My next question has everything to do with that. How does the process of learning actually play into feeling motivated at your job?
Liz : 00:39:48 Yeah. So learning. There’s a lot of research that shows that the more time we invest in something, the more we like it and the more motivated we are because we’re just getting better at it. Um, so I think especially when you’re first starting something out or when you’re first trying to teach yourself something in the beginning, like it’s, it’s usually pretty easy to pick up the very basic. So something like you can open the program, you can open a new file and draw a line on it, let’s say. Um, but then you usually hit this point where it just gets really hard all of a sudden because the learning curve gets really steep. But if you’re able to get past that and get into a place where you’re starting to produce something tangible or starting to feel some level of competence or expertise, that’s extremely motivating.
Michelle: 00:40:33 Right.
Liz : 00:40:33 And so there’s this one study where people were asked to assemble Ikea furniture and they were willing to pay a lot more to keep the Ikea furniture that they had assembled themselves than they were to pay for like a preassembled version of the same piece of furniture. And it’s just because like they had invested in it.
Brandi: 00:40:51 The feeling of accomplishment.
Liz : 00:40:52 Yeah, totally. And so when it comes to your job, I think, you know, if you’re feeling stuck or if you’re feeling really unmotivated, one of the best things you can do is just try and look at your work and look at your office, look at the people and say like, what could I learn here? And whatever your job, is there still something you can learn? Um, and that might be just like learning about a coworker that you’ve never met before. It might be trying to ask your boss or,
Brandi: 00:41:18 Swap skills.
Liz : 00:41:20 Yeah. Swap skills. That’s, yeah, that’s something that I’ve started doing with a lot of friends. Um, and this is like they don’t even have to work with you, but you also often have like a lot of knowledge that maybe you’re not even aware that is super useful to someone else. So just going to like anyone in your network and saying, Hey, can we take an hour and here’s what I know, is any of that interesting. I’m happy to teach you that for an hour or half hour. And then for the rest of the time you teach me about something that, you know and I think it’s also great because you just never know like what new piece of knowledge might spark inspiration or might kind of help you understand yourself a little better and like what kind of work in the future might be super fun or meaningful to you
Michelle: 00:42:04 And what a great way to build community and trust and kind of like
Brandi: 00:42:08 Understanding
Michelle: 00:42:09 Understanding with a group of people that you are friends with or maybe not even friends with but become friends with.
Liz : 00:42:17 Yeah. And I’ve also, it’s been. So when I’ve done it with friends, it’s been a really cool way also to, to like learn about this different part of your friend. Um, at least I think I talk a lot about feelings or about my personal life and I know the basics of some of my friends jobs, but I don’t really know the specifics of what they do every day.
Brandi: 00:42:41 That’s probably most of us.
Liz : 00:42:42 Yeah. And so like sometimes I sat down with a friend and just been blown away at the end of the 30 minutes because I understand them more and I’m like, wow, you’re so good at this. You’re so smart. And so I gained kind of a newfound respect for them as well.
Michelle: 00:42:54 And that probably helps the person you’re asking questions of feel a lot more heard and seen and
Brandi: 00:43:01 Affirmed.
Michelle: 00:43:01 And over all love.
Liz : 00:43:02 Yeah. Yeah. I think so many of us just probably don’t get as much validation at work as we should be getting. I think it’s just easy, especially when you’re with people every single day to just kind of take their skills for granted. And I don’t think that’s because we’re the bad intention. I think it’s just like a natural part of seeing someone every single day and so kind of going out into the world, it might also help you realize like, wow, I have learned a lot over the last year and I hadn’t even noticed that.
Brandi: 00:43:35 So do you think that in regards to that, like feeling motivated and learning and everything, um, how does that play into this idea of job crafting and, um, what’s, what’s the emotional payoff to job crafting?
Liz : 00:43:50 Yeah. So job crafting came from a professor who was interviewing a bunch of people at a hospital and she found that there were differences between janitors and so some of the janitors saw their work as like I sweep the floors and some of them like really we’re emotionally invested in their work and seemed to see themselves more as caretakers. And what she realized about the second group was that they got so much, um, like emotional satisfaction from really helping the patients in the hospital. So when their family members would come in and we’re looking for the person in the hospital, the janitors would be like, let me help you. Like, let me help you find the way, um, or would take a lot of joy about coming in in the morning and like opening the curtains or just having something ready for the person that they knew the patient liked. And so they had found things about their job that we’re not in the official job description that still gave them a lot of motivation and made those jobs really meaningful. And so during the day they were in these little moments like shifting their work more towards the work that was meaningful to them. And so this is something anyone can do at any job, in any role, um, which is just really, my friend, I love how she put it. She said that she tries to find the moments that bring her lightness. And so in moments when you feel like you’re not even working or are you just feel really satisfied and your work feels meaningful, write those down and then maybe after a week or two, go back and see everything that you’ve written down and seen how you could shift your day or shift your responsibilities to do more of that work. Um, and usually in a company if you really want to learn something and get good at it, they’re usually pretty open to at least in some small way maybe like staff and you want to project that allows you to learn those skills or do more of the work that you really enjoy.
Michelle: 00:45:41 I love how practical and also intentional that is. And then it also kind of gives you a kind of like the base board, I don’t know the word I’m looking for, it kind of gives you the base to like jump off of an ask your, your job to do something like that to help you learn.
Liz : 00:45:59 Yeah. And, and again I think, you know, I won’t say this is every workplace, but the majority of workplaces I think do respond well to someone taking the initiative and being like, Hey, I really like this. Can we talk more about how I might be able to do more of that in the future?
Brandi: 00:46:18 Oh my goodness, I love it so much. I love that. A lot of the things in this book are very actionable. You know, it’s not just like, here are all these huge ideas on all your big feelings that you’re feeling, um, and you know, just know these things. It’s like, okay, now that you understand all this stuff about feelings, here’s what to do with them in all these specific instances, whether it’s, um, as a leader or in communication or in, you know, decision making and all these different aspects of our lives. Um, so, uh, sorry, I lost my place. Oh, there was a question I had. Um, I think there was only one place where you said it’s not. If I could be wrong, I think there’s only one place where you said it’s not good to listen to your gut or listened to your feelings. Um, and it was when you are hiring people.
Liz : 00:47:10 Yeah.
Brandi: 00:47:10 Um, can you expand on that just a little bit?
Liz : 00:47:13 Yeah. So I want to first add a caveat, which is if you have a super bad feeling about someone and they’re creeping you out, like, okay, but don’t
Brandi: 00:47:23 If they feel like a stalker. That’s okay. Just so we’re clear.
Liz : 00:47:27 But generally we, it’s just natural as humans that we tend to like people that are like us. Um, and so I’ve absolutely had this where I grew up outside of Chicago and when I meet someone who also grew up outside of Chicago, it doesn’t matter anything else about them, like, oh my God, Oh, you and me.
Michelle: 00:47:46 Immediately.
Liz : 00:47:48 That’s just totally natural. But when it comes to hiring, it means that we can become inadvertently like really biased about the people we hire. And so this matters a lot if you’re trying to build out a diverse workforce, um, where you’re trying to have like women and men and people of color and people who are kind of representative of every, every group that should be represented in the workplace because you might have a tendency to be like, we went to the same school together. We both like to play basketball. We both like to drink this kind of beer and therefore I’m just going to assume that there are great because I have a great feeling about them. And there’s so much research
Brandi: 00:48:28 That often doesn’t work out well.
Michelle: 00:48:29 Totally. Like there’s so much research that shows that you liking someone has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they can do the job. Um, and so not only are you probably going to hire, if you only hire based on your gut, you’re probably gonna hire a bunch of people that look and act like you, but you’re also going to hire a bunch of people who might not necessarily be able to even do the job that you’re trying to hire them to do. Um, so it’s just really important to have like a standard set of questions. And then when you go to evaluate those questions, don’t look at like each candidate individually. Be like, let’s look at every single person’s answers to number one and compare them. Let’s look at everyone’s answers to number two and compare them because it also often happens that like someone answers one question really, really well and then we just remember that one answer. But when you look at the whole questions, like every single question compared to each other, it might become clear that they answered really well on this one. But the rest of their answers were subpar and overall they’re like, actually not the best person for the job.
Brandi: 00:49:32 I love, I love that kind of. As much as I love putting emotion into all the areas were not used to. I like the idea of taking emotion out of one area where we’re all so used to that.
Liz : 00:49:43 Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle: 00:49:44 In regards to our jobs, um, there’s the quote, I don’t want my salary to be a distraction to me while I’m in this role. So one, how did you come up with that? And two, how does that go along with like asking things like asking for a raise?
Liz : 00:50:03 Yeah. So that’s, Mollie, I think came up with that and has used it in several negotiations to get a higher salary and it’s really about presenting. So when you’re trying to negotiate for salary or for anything, really the most important thing is to understand like why you want it, but also why it could benefit the other party because you want to get everyone to a place. Everyone feels happy. Um, and so by saying like, I don’t want this to be a distraction to me, you’re kind of communicating, I want to be paid a fair wage, um, and if you don’t pay me that I might not be as motivated and you want like someone who’s really motivated, who feels valued, who feels like the company is also investing in them in a real way. And so it’s a nice way of signaling. I’m not just asking for money out by picking a number out of the sky and demanding it. It’s, this is kind of a fair market rate. I’ve done my research, I know that this is how you should value me and like, you should want me to feel valued so that I can be the best person that I could be at this job.
Michelle: 00:51:07 That’s good. So again, you’re kind of taking emotion out of that.
Liz : 00:51:12 Sort of. But I think the first, the first step is really having empathy for the other party, which is, you know, like
Michelle: 00:51:19 An emotion.
Liz : 00:51:20 What. Yeah, like what, like what does the other party, what are they feeling, what do they want out of this? Um, and then again presenting, it’s again like the feelings around the negotiation and defining the need behind those feelings. Um, and that I think something too when it comes to feelings and negotiation is just really not to make it. And I’ve seen this happen or this, my friend was telling me that this happened in a salary negotiation for her where it just became like, Hooray, we want to hire you. And then suddenly it turns into like a hostile situation where it’s like, now we have to fight over the salary. Um, and it’s really like they want to hire you, you want to work there, like just have a conversation and like don’t make it feel antagonistic
Brandi: 00:52:07 Or more awkward than it needs to.
Liz : 00:52:07 Yeah, or like don’t come into it like ready to fight. It’s just like come into it, like open it off on a good note, like be empathetic, be engaging, be open to conversation, just have an honest talk about it. And that usually ends in a better result than if you’re just, like already tense and like ready to fight.
Brandi: 00:52:26 And as a leader, I think, um, you know, a manager or a leader of a department, I think um, you know, knowing how to approach salary negotiations or people coming to you with their feelings in general, um, is a really good place to be. Um, I like that you said that being a leader is more about emotional intelligence than personality traits. Um, where do you think that that falls when it comes to gender? Do you, did you find it all that I’m like a woman manager maybe has more emotional IQ than, than a male manager just because of how we’re, we’re kind of groomed to look at emotions.
Liz : 00:53:12 Yeah. I think generally women are better at like picking up on emotional cues and they are also in group settings, much more collaborative. Um, I think again going back to how we’re raised, you know, boys will be boys and they’re going to fight on the playground and it’s always kind of like a oneupsmanship whereas girls are always encouraged to be nice, you know, like smile, you girls are like sugar and spice and everything nice.
Brandi: 00:53:37 But are we? Just Kidding.
Liz : 00:53:39 Not always, but I think that does kind of prime the two genders to like men and women. Um, it, it, it probably primes like some, like more collaborative behavior in women and like more combative behavior and men. Um, and then I would say though that like when it comes to leadership like you, you, you mentioned there’s not there, no research has borne out that like extroverts are better leaders, introverts are better leaders, like whatever your Myers Briggs is like, that makes you the best leader. It’s really just emotional intelligence. And so whether you’re a woman or a man, like investing in getting curious about people, understanding that the people you’re managing or leading are all different and all have different preferences and so you should understand what those are to motivate them and their individual best ways is super important no matter what your gender is.
Michelle: 00:54:39 Before we move on to another thing, I have one more question for you in that is how did you become so passionate about this specific subject,
Brandi: 00:54:49 About feeling feelings.
Michelle: 00:54:50 About feeling feelings so deeply and understanding them?
Liz : 00:54:54 Yeah. So I think I mentioned earlier that I left this first job, um, and I, I think more accurate is that I totally burnt out. I’m like, I was just really anxious towards the end. I was getting bad migraines. It just became kind of, I was not able to keep working there. And that process was very sad because it was like this job that seemed successful, right? Like I put a suit on, I walked into a fancy building and I went up to like a big floor, um, and
Michelle: 00:55:29 Like in all the movies.
Liz : 00:55:31 Totally right. And then it also, and especially like as a woman, I was like, I’ve made it. I’m like working in the corporate world as a woman and then I couldn’t. Um, and so then when I look to the future, it was suddenly really scary to think about, well, what, what job can I do? Like, what is my passion? I’m not only my passion, but like, what’s something that I enjoy that will also help me pay my rent. Um, and so that process led me to do a lot of research around emotions. And then looking back at that first job, I just think if I had more vocabulary to talk about it, if I had more skills and this is why we try to make the book like super actionable if I just had some kind of guidebook that had helped me be like, you know, part of being successful is not making your job your whole life. Like go to dinner with your friends, like you need things to have a sustainable career. Even small things like that. I just didn’t, no one was telling me I hadn’t read anywhere. Um, and so this means a lot to me because I guess I think about like my 23 year old self and I’m sure that, that, that self exists in other people. Um, and it just at that time, and it still does to this day. Like it would have meant the world to me for just someone to be like, hey, you’re not alone.
Michelle: 00:56:52 Right.
Brandi: 00:56:52 It’s okay. Go home. And also like take the weekend off. You’re not going to get fired, you know, like you can be a successful female leader and have emotions and want to actually take a vacation where you don’t check your email and if you do that, other people will be grateful for you. If you become a leader and you set that example, people will want to work for you. And I just, I think, I think people just always, always need to hear that message.
Michelle: 00:57:19 And I think that a lot of people don’t know that they need to hear that message there.
Liz : 00:57:23 Yeah
Michelle: 00:57:23 Maybe there’s a 23 or 23 year old you out there who is just so blinded and doesn’t even know that they need these words and they need this message.
Liz : 00:57:33 Yeah. Yeah. And so I, yeah, I really hope that the book just makes, you know, like even a few people feel better and feel not so alone.
Brandi: 00:57:45 That’s, you already did that to two, two, I know two isn’t a few, but.
Michelle: 00:57:50 It’s getting there,
Brandi: 00:57:50 You’re getting there. I feel like this is going to be a really powerful resource for people in the back of the book. You’ve got lots of, you know, a huge section of resources. There’s emotional assessment test that you can take at the back of the book or online. Um, there’s all these like lists of questions is as a leader for how to make your team feel more welcome, like throughout the book. There’s just so many resources and I’m just so grateful. So thank you for, for writing this book. Tell your your pal. Oh Gosh, my gosh.
Michelle: 00:58:21 Mollie?
Brandi: 00:58:22 I’m terrible your pal Mollie. We appreciate her to all that you guys put into this. Um, and now we have a really fun little segment that we’re calling.
Michelle: 00:58:32 Stuff we ask everyone.
Liz : 00:58:36 Yay
Brandi: 00:58:36 So, uh, we’re just gonna Kinda like shoot some quick questions at you that we’re going to start asking all of our interviewees that are just sort of not deep questions, just fun.
Michelle: 00:58:47 Who knows? They could be deep. I don’t know. First things first, what are you listening to slash reading slash slash watching right now?
Liz : 00:58:55 Oh, I’m reading this book called An American Marriage and it’s fiction and it was one of Oprah’s book club picks.
Michelle: 00:59:02 Yes.
Liz : 00:59:04 It’s so good. Like I have cried so much, but I still think that people should read it, you’re going to be sad but sad in a good way.
Brandi: 00:59:12 Michelle will read it because she’s a crier and I’ll read it but I won’t cry and she’ll just think I’m dead inside as usual,
Liz : 00:59:17 I highly recommended.
Brandi: 00:59:19 Next one. Describe yourself three words. Good luck.
Liz : 00:59:24 I’m gonna. Go doodle, coffee, feelings.
Brandi: 00:59:30 Ooh.
Michelle: 00:59:31 All of good things
Brandi: 00:59:32 Not in that order.
Liz : 00:59:35 Maybe we’ll start with coffee.
Brandi: 00:59:37 And you can feel the feelings
Liz : 00:59:40 Yeah.
Michelle: 00:59:40 I love it. And what is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning?
Liz : 00:59:46 Oh, I checked my phone.
Brandi: 00:59:50 Noooo! I mean, we all kind of do. Just kind of different.
Liz : 00:59:51 Okay something unique is I’ve eaten the same breakfast for seven years.
Michelle: 00:59:55 What?!
Liz : 00:59:56 Yeah.
Brandi: 00:59:57 Gasp.
Michelle: 00:59:57 How?!
Liz : 00:59:59 Yeah. It’s like a bowl of yogurt and then I have a granola bar that I crumble into it and I drink it and I eat that with a cup of coffee and it’s just like, it’s become this huge emotional comfort for me. Even if I’m traveling or I’m having a bad day somehow, just like always having this breakfast that I really like just makes me. It makes me feel really grounded when life gets crazy.
Brandi: 01:00:22 Wow, like vanilla yogurt?
Michelle: 01:00:23 I was going to say is it a at a specific yogurt or?
Liz : 01:00:26 It’s Trader Joe’s. Nonfat plain Greek yogurt.
Brandi: 01:00:29 Oh my goodness.
Michelle: 01:00:31 And there’s like the granola bar, just like a Trader Joe’s.
Liz : 01:00:35 Yeah, I’m more relaxed about that.
Brandi: 01:00:38 You’re like a chocolate one today.
Liz : 01:00:41 Oh, I, I love the chocolate one.
Michelle: 01:00:43 That’s great.
Brandi: 01:00:44 Um, okay. Next, what do you geek out about? We’ll say besides emotions.
Liz : 01:00:51 Oh, um, I think I geek out about people just creating things. I’m like, I just really believed that I have. I feel like I have so many friends who are like, oh, you draw things. That’s like a skill that I would never have and I think some people are naturally more like it’s easier for them to pick up creative skills but I just think everyone can be creative and so like just literally like put your pen on a piece of paper and move your arm around.
Michelle: 01:01:21 And look, you have created something.
Brandi: 01:01:21 And look it’s modern art!
Liz : 01:01:25 Yeah. And so I think I like really geek out about especially like children, like learning creative things and just instilling in people early on like you are a creative being. Don’t think that it’s just something someone else has. Like your creativity might be different, but you, there’s something in you that’s like crazy and weird and unique and you should nurture that.
Brandi: 01:01:45 We could not agree more.
Michelle: 01:01:46 And you are now the new spokesperson for our podcast so thank you!
Brandi: 01:01:50 Exactly what we say all the time.
Michelle: 01:01:51 Are you a morning, noon or night? Type of person?
Liz : 01:01:56 Morning.
Michelle: 01:01:56 Morning. Good. Yeah, me too.
Brandi: 01:01:59 So I guess when are you most productive? Would that be morning or is that different?
Liz : 01:02:04 I think it’s, yeah, it’s morning and then I always, not always, but I would say some days I have this like really weird burst of productivity at like 9:00 PM. Um, yeah. I don’t know where that comes from.
Brandi: 01:02:16 It’s like your second. Your second wind.
Liz : 01:02:18 Yeah it’s my second. Yeah, it takes a long time.
Michelle: 01:02:22 Like approximately 16 hours.
Brandi: 01:02:25 But it happens, hey.
Michelle: 01:02:27 And I just want you to know what this next question there is absolutely no judgment. Android or Apple.
Liz : 01:02:36 Oh. So I have an Apple but, and Oh, I just like, the IOS updates are so irritating.
Michelle: 01:02:46 I have not updated any of them. I can’t, I can’t do it. I know what it’s gonna do to my battery. So
Liz : 01:02:51 Yeah, yeah. I need to stop. I just somehow just like, I’m like, okay. Oh. And then they always get me with the new emojis. Like there’s, there’s no emojis. You can only get if you update your IOS.
Michelle: 01:03:02 So you know what I’m saying? I just tell them my friends say sorry, you screenshot and send because I don’t have the update and I don’t know what it is.
Brandi: 01:03:09 And I just always just want it all. I want all the things. So even if it makes my phone feels like it’s on fire in my pocket, I just do it anyway.
Michelle: 01:03:17 No problem there.
Liz : 01:03:18 Oh, and then I also just want to publicly gripe about the fact that on the new iPhone you can’t charge it and plug your headphones. Then at the same time.
Michelle: 01:03:26 Why? Why?
Brandi: 01:03:29 Unless you have an inductive charger.
Brandi: 01:03:31 What is that?
Liz : 01:03:32 Ooh.
Brandi: 01:03:33 But then it’s laying down flat on something.
Michelle: 01:03:35 One of those, got it.
Brandi: 01:03:37 Yeah.
Michelle: 01:03:37 Just, it’s not gonna happen for me yet.
Brandi: 01:03:38 We’ll make sure that message gets to Apple, Liz.
Liz : 01:03:41 Thank you.
Brandi: 01:03:43 Okay. Uh, what superhero do you relate to most and why?
Liz : 01:03:47 Let’s see. Okay. So it’s, I don’t know if it’s a superhero, but I recently watched Moana.
Michelle: 01:03:52 She’s basically a superhero.
Liz : 01:03:54 Yeah. And I like the soundtrack is amazing. And then also kind of just her, like, especially as a female, taking a risk and finding out who she is and then realizing that she has all this amazing potential within her.
Brandi: 01:04:08 She had it all along.
Michelle: 01:04:09 I love that soundtrack. You just watched it?
Liz : 01:04:13 I will. I mean I just watched it but then I watched it like six months ago, but I would say I’m a recent Moana fan.
Michelle: 01:04:18 Okay. Lindeman Lin-Manuel Miranda is a genius and helped with so much of that soundtrack. And so
Liz : 01:04:25 It’s so good.
Michelle: 01:04:25 I love it. I love it. Um, what drives you? Absolutely. Nuts
Liz : 01:04:33 Bubble popping. Like when I’m sitting somewhere and someone starts chewing gum and popping bubbles in rapid succession.
Michelle: 01:04:40 Oh, like the sucking in of the bubble. Not like blowing out of the bubble?
Liz : 01:04:45 Everything. Everything. It drives me crazy. So in Singapore, and I’ve heard in Singapore, gum chewing is illegal and I’m kind of on that board with that.
Michelle: 01:04:54 That’s such a weird law.
Brandi: 01:04:59 No way!
Michelle: 01:04:59 So good. Um, and lastly,
Brandi: 01:05:03 Second to lastly.
Michelle: 01:05:04 Second, lastly.
Brandi: 01:05:05 How do you want to be remembered?
Liz : 01:05:08 I think I would like to be remembered like partly just for having art that people to on an emotional level and then also as being someone who just makes it okay to feel bad sometimes and they’re like, that’s just part of the human experience and just helps people see that they should still treat themselves with kindness even in moments that are overwhelming or hard.
Michelle: 01:05:36 That’s great.
Brandi: 01:05:37 That’s a good thing to be remembered by.
Michelle: 01:05:38 Yeah, I like it. It’s super
Brandi: 01:05:40 For starting a conversation.
Michelle: 01:05:41 Yes. And okay, actual lastly.
Brandi: 01:05:46 Actual last one.
Michelle: 01:05:47 What would your mom tell her friends that you do? Like what do you do according to your mom?
Liz : 01:05:53 Oh, I have no idea. I’m going to say I think she can now be like she wrote a book. So that’s something that she can tell.
Brandi: 01:05:59 Oh man, that’s too easy. What about before? Now?
Liz : 01:06:02 Before now I have to ask. I’m sure it was something like she works on the West Coast and interviews people and writes things.
Michelle: 01:06:13 Yeah. And this is actually stems from brandy’s personal experience of what her mom tells her. Everyone that she does and her mom, she
Brandi: 01:06:21 My mom tells people I’m a graphics designer,
Michelle: 01:06:24 Graphic designer.
Brandi: 01:06:25 I’m sorry, a graphics artist. I’m a graphic artist and I still don’t know what that is.
Liz : 01:06:31 That’s amazing.
Brandi: 01:06:33 I’ve decided this is going to be a question I ask every everybody because especially in the creative field and people don’t understand this, but you would think that your mom, you know, like your mom should know what you do. Right? But not usually. I guess so, yeah. Small understanding.
Liz : 01:06:50 One thing about my dad, he’s a retired doctor and he read the, like part of the book that was talking about like the importance of having emotions so that everyone has emotions and he closed the book and he just looked at me and he was like, I’m so glad I’m retired.
Brandi: 01:07:06 I don’t want to have to deal with this emotion still exist. Even if you don’t work in an office.
Michelle: 01:07:12 That is so funny. Oh, well Liz, thank you so much. When does no hard feelings come out?
Liz : 01:07:21 It comes out on February fifth.
Michelle: 01:07:23 Ah, that’s so soon going to be released everywhere?
Liz : 01:07:27 I think everywhere. Yeah, definitely. The Internet places and then it shouldn’t be in most bookstores.
Brandi: 01:07:34 That’s so exciting. Well, um, I don’t think that the one we have has insides of color, but I can picture the insides in some color and it seems brilliant because it’s great in gray scale. So um,
Liz : 01:07:49 I will make sure to send you a color version when it’s ready.
Brandi: 01:07:52 Oh. And all the color in it right now is all the different pin colors that I use is I underlined things.
Michelle: 01:07:59 Yep.
Brandi: 01:07:59 Uh, my daughter was like, is that your book? Because I’m writing all over it. So thank you. Liz. Um, you are welcome on our podcast anytime. I hope that this book launch just goes gangbusters for you and that you can just share this well of knowledge with the world.
Michelle: 01:08:27 So that was Liz Fossilien, from No Hard Feelings, that she coauthored that book with Mollie. Um, we will be posting all of this information in the show notes or Joelle will actually thanks Joelle.
Brandi: 01:08:39 Thanks Joelle.
Michelle: 01:08:40 She’s got the work cut out for her today cuz
Brandi: 01:08:42 I know
Michelle: 01:08:42 we had some great conversation. I hope that you enjoyed it. If you did, please pass it along. You can also rate and review us on itunes this week. We heard from
Brandi: 01:08:52 Keegan.Clark on Instagram. Um, uh, how, uh, how I got this one? He actually posts. He tagged a design speaks podcast on the Freedom Fry song, which was in one of the very first episodes that we played. I was just like, Hey Keegan, thank you so much for listening to our playlist. Have you heard the podcast? And this was his reply. He said, yes. I just discovered your podcast and have been listening to it. I’m on episode 14 right now. I followed the playlist a little while ago. I’m actually a graphic design student at Iowa State University and loved listening to you guys. I learned so much and have been so inspired from this podcast. I love how passionate Brandi is about graphic design and how Michelle is so interested and eager to learn. Thank you for this podcast.
Michelle: 01:09:39 Episode Fourteen. I was pretty stinking eager. I was like, what are these words you’re saying? But now I feel like
Brandi: 01:09:45 I’m like, are you not eager,
Michelle: 01:09:46 I’m eager
Brandi: 01:09:46 You’re not eager to learn anymore?
Michelle: 01:09:47 I’m eager to learn
Brandi: 01:09:48 He’s going to get to episode 60 and be like, Michelle’s no longer eager.
Michelle: 01:09:50 Sorry. Didn’t realize that she wouldn’t be eager to learn anymore. Um, no, I still am. I just feel like I’ve got a way better handle on the language that you, that you speak. Not like perfect, but I’ve got a way better handle on it. It’s kind of like I kind of understand Starbucks language, you know?
Brandi: 01:10:07 Okay.
Michelle: 01:10:07 If that makes sense.
Brandi: 01:10:08 I don’t, but I understand what you’re trying to say. Yeah. So Michelle, where can people find us?
Michelle: 01:10:14 People can find us on all forms of social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter via, at Brandi Sea.
Brandi: 01:10:20 B, R, A, N, D, I, S, E, A, and @designspeakspodcast,
Michelle: 01:10:24 And @designspeakspodcast. That’s on instagram. You can follow us there. We’re posting fairly regularly right now
Brandi: 01:10:32 We’re trying.
Michelle: 01:10:33 Yeah, we’re going to figure it out. Figuring this whole social media.
Brandi: 01:10:36 We actually have a social media plan, so
Michelle: 01:10:39 Welcome 2019. A huge. Or you can also email us brandi@brandisea.com. A huge thanks to Vesperteen for allowing us to use his song Shatter in the Night as the intro and outro to design speaks. We don’t know what we would do without him. Until next week.