Thank You To

TRANSCRIPTION  of Chapter 7 of Season 2

Pricing Strategies for Creatives with Natalie Franke

00:00:05 – 00:05:07

Welcome to design speaks the podcast that helps you discover uncommon inspiration take control of your creativity and create one that gets noticed. I’m your host Brandy see joining me is my co-host Julie Haider. Hi, Julie. Hey Brandy. So are you so excited for our guests today? I am I’m so so excited. I know this is going to be an amazing conversation. We we have the amazing Natalie Frank on with us today. And there’s going to be a whole introduction that happens. It tells you a little bit more about who she is when the interview starts but just so you know only part of this interview is available via this podcast and if you want access to the full episode of that is actually available to all of our patrons over on patreon. So it’s it’s a great long valuable episode and I want you guys all to hear it so home or you can find it in your hearts to support us for even a dollar would be super helpful to keep this podcast going. But other than that, what have you Been up to Julie. I’m finally getting back into doing a little answer for this summer. So I’m super excited about actually getting to like be physically working outside home office, which is awesome. Yeah. So by the time this episode airs think it’s probably October. Oh, wow. Okay. So so we’re like, I think we’re like projecting ourselves into the future right now. Yeah, we just for transparency. We record we record a release so that we can have the summer kind of to ourselves and have some free time. But yeah, I I was struggling with with figuring out how to bring my inspiration with with recording so far in advance cuz it it seems very like to the time right now as opposed to like what’s going on in the fall cuz Brandy’s always inspired by the fall and the cold weather and I love the fall all that stuff. So right now what’s been the home Inspiring to me is Kenny and I have had two very much like switch up our our strategy on our vacation. We had to cancel our trip to Disney World, which is a huge bummer and because of covid-19. Not have looked twice at because there’s not a lot of options even for even for camping and going to places that we really were like, okay. Well if we can go to Disney will go here. So right now our our options are looking at staying with family and beaching it up or in California are going to San Antonio found staying at this little this little Resort just outside of town. And so my my inspiration right now is coming from a lot of people. I’m looking at a car online that are Doing what? I hope to do and that’s finding finding fun things to do. And so I guess I’m trying to really own the opportunity to show my kids something different as opposed to just like we’re going to suck. Oh find all of The Monuments and all the popular Destination type things. So even if we can’t even get to the Alamo because I don’t know might not be open in San Antonio like Thursday we can go, you know, visit the rivers nearby and try and try and do what I’m not really usually doing which is what you do a lot and that’s going out into it or anything like its nature as opposed to like I want to see buildings and things like that where there’s lots of people and now my my my my Outlook and all that has completely changed. So often inspiring for me right now is people like you who are able to find something cool anywhere travel-related something off.

00:05:07 – 00:10:10

Like yeah and and trying to look at the not. The not popular places and not that we just go popular places, but those tend to be the places that have the most to do for families. And so trying to be I’m having to tap into creativity of a different kind to find something cool and easy fun for everyone to do. So. Yeah, that’s cool though. By the time this airs this whole vacation will have happened. So you’ve probably already seen me have it on Thursday. So yeah, I guess so. Yeah. So let’s hear from from Natalie and check out a really fun conversation that we had with her. So I’ve met Natalie for a few years now in person but I’ve been watching her and her business and how she’s grown a global Community for the last five years or so long and I’m just blown away by like what an amazing person she is how much she gives and how how big she thinks in terms of just making the world a better place. So I really excited That we get to talk to her today, and I know the conversations going to be really great. Surely thank you so much for helping me is Brandy like I sorry. I didn’t mean to deny. This is we we talked about this months ago about doing this episode. So the fact that it’s here. Sorry. I’m doing oh it’s the best it’s really fast and so much has unfolded in that time. It’s like we live on a different planet, you know, we really do home. So I I got involved with the rising tide Society because of Julie and I would love for you to just give us a what’s your what’s your elevator pitch Natalie Cole? Oh, man. Okay. So when it comes to Rising tide, here’s the elevator pitch Rising tide is a community of creative entrepreneurs who Gather in the spirit of community over competition and our organization is all about education and empowerment. It’s about giving people the tools they need making access to that education accessible and through Community through relationships through looking out for people lifting them up, encouraging an amplifying voices. We Empower all of us to raise the tied together. So that is what Rising tide is all about and I I love that you’re a part of it. And obviously it’s Julie wage has so much to do with the incredible community in New Mexico. And so it’s just it’s so special to be able to lose connection to the United psycho. I do. Well first of all, I’ve obviously actually home which is a great connection to have to my my dad and my step mom and my baby brother lives out in in Santa Fe right outside of Santa Fe out in La Cienega and oh nice either. You know love visiting have visited for years and years and years and it truly has such a special place in my heart and I tell anyone when they say. Okay, what’s your favorite part of the United States? I say New Mexico. Wow where and I say New Mexico if you need a passport to get there, they always ask me that they always do they always, you know, of course, it’s funny, especially the East Coasters. They don’t know what’s up out west. It’s funny but not funny. I know but I stand by it. I really stand by it. I think New Mexico is one of the most extraordinary places full potential in the world, and I’ve travelled a lot but there is something really incredible about the state about everything everything truly like every aspect of society and culture as opposed to New Mexico. It’s really an extraordinary place a lot. Actually. I’m president of aiga here in New Mexico, and we’re in the process of Not rebranding cuz we’re part of the IGA, you know, but for our local chapter kind of trying to figure out what our voice is uniquely and we’re literally in the process. I’m leading our team figuring out. What is good about like what is special about us? Like what’s different about us from AIG a Colorado or Arizona or Texas who are similar, but what what’s like our young right? Like, what is our unique selling point? And so I have a hard time figuring that out because I was born and raised here and I’m just like take me to New York, please. I love hearing that from from someone on the outside. Yeah. That’s awesome. Now go ahead really I was just going to say So speaking of the rising tide Society one of one of the most memorable meetings you ever had actually before I was leader was pretty early on in in the rising tide since birth. History, but we talked about value and pricing and it was just a really interesting conversation because I think it’s a a hard thing to figure out and every single one of us has jostled with it, especially when you’re kind of in the beginning stages of your business.

00:10:10 – 00:15:11

It’s really overwhelming to figure out what you should be charging. And you know, I value is like that’s kind of like a process you have to go through to for you to believe in your value and then to be able to share that with others. So that was kind of one of my favorite conversations that we’ve ever had was on that topic. So I think it’s really great. Not only that you’re here to talk just about that today and I know you’re a big you’re a big cheerleader for everything to know their value and to actually charge it and so I’m really excited to hear what you have to say on this topic today. Amazing. Well, I’m excited to answer any questions that you have and dive in and provide as much value as a club. To your listeners. Okay, so I don’t know if I don’t know how if Julie had like a starting question. Did you have a study question? I feel like I have follow-up questions. Okay. Okay, so part of what you said about educating and empowering. That’s what I also hope to do. That’s that’s why I started a Blog then YouTube channel. And then this podcast is I don’t want to just educate people. I also want to give like actionable tools and in in the Avenue of pricing. I know that I’ve definitely not talked about that enough wage. I also feel like it’s something that’s almost like a weird guarded secret. It’s like, you know, they always tell you when you work in an office, like don’t don’t tell other people what you make and so even when you go outside of office setting and you become a creative entrepreneur, I feel like that’s just like not talk about it. And then we’re all just like what the heck do I charge? Like, I don’t know and then you see fiber and move. More on the like this side of like branding and things like that. Then you’re like, okay. Well if they’re charging like $100 for whatever you need in any number of revisions, I guess maybe I should charge $50 so that I get the jobs. And so you you know Rising tide isn’t just designers. It’s not just photographers. It’s like creative professionals. What’s what do you think is like wage? A good way to start that conversation with other creatives so that you cannot just be like, what do you make yeah. I’m about to make some waves. Are we ready? Yes needs to be made right now to do it Thursday morning you I warned you I get passionate and I get fired up and I just unleash and so you’re about to experience account wishing. Here’s the deal. Here’s the deal. Here’s the truth bottom line price on a secret see is the number one reason. I believe that there isn’t fair wages paid across-the-board especially to women in the workplace. When we aren’t transparent about a charge we create the ability for just a lack of a lack of knowledge transparency and therefore ultimately money to be made in both in the corporate workplace. And in the creative one, you know, we’ve done a lot of research at Honeybrook and Rising tide specifically as it pertains to gender pay Gap specifically as it pertains to the fact that you’ve Women in the creative space or making less than their male counterparts and often times actually have more experience and more education when looked at comparatively across especially in leadership positions, especially in leadership positions. And so sorry it’s making some waves but the true power that I really believe when we look at it is not whenever by the way I should preface this whenever we talk about gender pay Gap people tend to get a little uncomfortable because they have an initial perception that somehow I’m saying, you know men aren’t enabling women to make what they’re worth and that’s not actually what I’m saying because when I did the research and we looked at hundreds of thousands of invoices off, you have to remember that these are prices that women are setting themselves. Yeah. These are rates that women are choosing to charge and herein lies. The reason why price transparency is critical when we aren’t communicating, you know, hey, I’m charging this much and I’m actually going to be raising my prices then no one’s aware of just how high we can climb know he’s aware of just how much are dead. Work is worth and therefore what starts to happen and you’ll you’ll louda fiber fiber’s an example of this is we do the opposite instead of raising the tide instead of raising our prices and holding steadfast to the quality and the money we can charge for that quality of work. We start to race to the bottom. Yes, you know things like fiber a lack of transparency and pricing a lack of confidence and pricing, you know, a discount discount discount mentality. All it does is Drive the entire creative industry rate down. Okay. So what they were talking from, you know, a gender perspective or gender pay Gap, we’re just straight up talking creative regardless of which gender of all the genders that you identify as the reality here is that if we aren’t transparent in pricing if we aren’t coming alongside one another and saying hey look when I started this is how I priced here is what I learned.

00:15:11 – 00:20:06

Here’s maybe what I would have done differently, but I want to show you where I am today five years and ten years in and how I thought Here then we’re never going to enable the entire industry as a whole to raise the type together. So I have a lot of thoughts on that that the price transparency is a big one. I remember when I was a full-time wedding photographer and there’s was this terrifying feeling of I don’t want someone to know how much I charge so I would never put it on my website and the thought was how do I guard my, you know, a secret sauce. I know consider steals it rather than saying, how do I serve potential customers through my pricing in a way that actually generates more Revenue the concentration and the focus leads to the output and the action. So when we concentrate on our competitors when we concentrate on that place of fear of I can’t let anybody know what I charge if you let anybody know how I work. I can’t let anybody know my secret sauce. We lose sight of the fact that we’re not building this business to run from competitors. We’re building this business to run towards clients that need us right and so in New Jersey, On the pricing, you know the same Theory applies in my in my mindset, I believe and also creating transparency with clients in a strategic way. This doesn’t mean you have to publish all your rates. It’s not what I’m asking for. I think there’s a ton of strategy around just publishing certain amounts of information that you know leveraging things like anchor pricing Theory. So that’s the idea that that first number you put out is the number that that client will anchor to psychologically right? They will anchor to that number and therefore any other numbers that you throw their way after that first impression number that they’ve anchored mm. Well either be perceived as more expensive or less expensive and so I leverage this for example as a photographer a lot of people would say, oh starting at $3,000 and I say, why would I tell them I’m starting off $1,000 because then anything else I throw their way is going to feel really expensive. It’s going to feel really pricey and it’s so true emotion and so true right my pre-qualification is dead. Hang them up for a you know, discount mentality. Like how much can I get for that for that amount versus what I changed and encourage people to do is putting out a number that says most people spend between a most Investments are around and giving your median actually giving sort of your your Center numbers. And so instead of saying hey my collection start at 3,000 I would say for example, like hey most cuz I was a wedding photographer most couples spend between $4,200 and $5,600 on their wedding collection. Now did I have packages that were higher than that? Absolutely and some people love to spend money and not a love like they’re getting the Rolls-Royce writing photography. I’m all for it. Okay, I love to upsell. I love the strategy that comes into play afterwards. But what I didn’t have happened were people would never email me and then ghost because they couldn’t afford me and the amount of hours that saved me and you know, the the ability for me to then enter into client conversations already wage. Prerequisite that they had a transparent understanding right in Earnest understanding that the relationship was built on honesty. It was built on trust it was hey, here’s what most people spend. If you’re in this range. Let’s have a real conversation versus I can only afford the smallest number she threw out and everything else. I feel uncomfortable. I don’t want my clients to feel uncomfortable. I you know, I also believe I’ll say one more thing and then I want the follow-up questions about I get fired. No, I’m listening. Okay. The other thing here too is I also believe and not being afraid to refer business out if it’s not financially the right fit. So if I would have a client come to me and say hey, I can only afford the lowest package or this is what I wanted. This is what I envisioned and I can’t afford that with you. I really believe that that is an opportunity to serve them. Well by referring them to someone else in my community who does incredible work who is more in their budget who can provide them with the experience. I believe they deserve at the dog. They can afford versus shaming customers for not being able to afford which I’ve unfortunately seen in the industry trying to you know, get every ounce of money out of somebody or or or sold them on something lower. I don’t I just have never truly believed in that as a business and I’ve always believed in this philosophy of okay, when they leave my hands like when a when a potential client or an existing client a customer leaves, am I my services leaves my communication like leaves my hands, how do they feel about the experience do they feel supported do they feel loved they feel served well, or do they feel like is she tried to get something out of them that this was a transactional opportunity because the reality here is relationships should always come first profit will follow when you have strong relationships, right? So, yes, I’ll leave it there.

00:20:06 – 00:25:06

But all to say when it comes to pricing anything in this realm I’m game for a hundred percent. You’ll get you’ll get my honest opinion answers. Can’t wait so gradually I’ll let you go first. Yeah, I think birth. Especially the last part you mentioned about referring out like you have to get it to a place a mind shift, which I think is very much a part of the rising tide Society of not the same city, but like there’s more than enough to go around and if this person is not if this isn’t my people it’s okay. There’s somebody else’s people and it’s better for everyone for me for the other than a creative and also for the client that they’d be referred out and I think like when you get to that point you feel just really great about the whole situation because it’s a win-win-win and everybody took to end up happy versus if you do try to be like, oh, well, you know, maybe I could give them a discount. I really need a book this, you know, like my numbers aren’t where I want them to be that kind of thing. Then you start to feel just about it. Yeah, like and it just I think from the client’s perspective. They might start to feel like weird or guilty about the fact You’re making changes for them and you at the end of the project may feel like man. Was it really worth it for me to do it for that price and that just kind of creepy attention there. That is not the best experience for anyone. So I think it just is a mindset shift of like it’s okay that this isn’t going to work out something better will come along and sucked in a send these guys to somebody else who it is the right relationship and what I’m hearing here, you know, you mentioned abundance and you mentioned scarcity and these are terms that have been around for a long time in business. What I also am hearing is a sense of self-confidence and this is something that we see often times and and again when I look at, you know the data around pricing and the data around, you know, who charges more and who doesn’t there’s also this big concern in my heart around confidence and are we empowering people with the confidence? They need to charge what they’re worth in to walk into a room with her head held off. Saying I’ve spent three years honing this craft. I deserve to charge what I charge or even on their first day in business to say, I’m going to work harder than anybody else for these clients. I deserve to charge what I’m gonna charge. I’m going to serve them. Well confidence is critical in order to adopt these mindsets of abundance in order to move forward with sort of a mindset that encompasses what what you’re talking about right not coming into a relationship already insecure. And actually we did I will never forget there was a night where we we did in San Francisco. It was it was one of our theories. I think it might have been sales tax in pricing but with one of our topics for Rising tide and we talked about how different people sell differently and there were two examples the first example was somebody who walks into a room and says, hey, you know, yeah, it’s $5,000 for my services and I would love the opportunity to work with you and here’s kind of the vision for what we could do together and the other person kind of walked in and said, you know, Mom I kind of I normally I normally charge like $5,000 but you know, maybe we could do a discount or if that’s not enough like from the start entered the room with that fear factor that they were already going to walk out and go to somebody else with that fear that the number they threw out there wasn’t a number that was worth throwing out there. And so I do believe there are so much that is interpreted am not received on the side of a client not even just verbally right even with the way we hold our bodies and meetings even virtual ones friends with the way that we choose to describe ourselves with our businesses on our about page with this strategy that goes into even into our design which brings. But like our our brand how we convey ourselves out in the external World communicates to your client our confidence in the service or the product that we deliver and it is so important to truly believe and and to communicate that belief that you are worthy wage. Of the price that you charge and you are worthy of the clients that are interested in your work. I know it’s scary. And I know that there are all of those, you know kind of Whispers I call them lies that that whisper in our minds tell us, you know, you’re not enough or you can’t possibly charge that or who do you think you are to join quit your percentage? You got it. You got it imposter syndrome. And so we have to consciously attack that you know, the there there’s an understanding that most of our thoughts are actually sub and sort of like in that subconscious its own right? So they happen and operated our mind very much unconsciously or subconsciously home pending on how you find it or not even consciously or cognitively aware that they’re happening and I do believe that imposter syndrome a lot of times lives in that like subconscious tujhe.

00:25:06 – 00:30:06

Just peeking his head into the conscious realm. So what we have to do and I’m not trying to get Louis on anybody but we have to do is we have to attack those thoughts the minute that we do become consciously aware of them we have table Rewrite the script it is so important. We have to rewrite it in our minds and actually if if not even verbally at least at least, you know, silently mentally affirm ourselves in those beliefs because life I used to think that mindset shifts and mentalities were not concretely based in results. I used to think that you know, I wanted to see the data. I wanted to see the proof and and the longer I’ve been in business. I’ve been an entrepreneur for over ten years. Now the more often I can look back on my life and see how there is a deep connection between moments where I feel strong in in my own, you know, well being and who I am I feel resilient because I know I am capable of overcoming, you know, I am a proud of the work that I’m creating and how that translates to the decisions that I make wage on a day-by-day basis and how those decisions that I make on a day-by-day basis roll up to Trends and those Trends roll up to yearly profit and loss statements and those roll up into whether or not I’m still home. Just five years from now and I really believe there is power when we are able to build that confidence within ourselves. And if we’re struggling with that to join communities, like Rising tide is a great example or people can pour into us or people can affirm us and where we can say. Hey can I be vulnerable for a second? I’ve got to be vulnerable. This is hard, right? Yeah, and we can come to the table honestly and say look, this is what I’m feeling. I want to go in this direction, but I just don’t know like is my work at that place. Can I charge that or you know those rooms where you can say, here’s what I’ve been charging and I don’t think I’m charging enough, but I’ve been too afraid to raise my prices and to have a room full of your peers give you honest and open feedback about where you’re at whether it’s a pricing strategy or a creative strategy or marketing or business straight up plan and strategy all of that plays into that realm of confidence and that idea of self and how you walk through the spaces that you occupy and I really believe that there is so much to be said for surrounding yourself with people that are inspiring wage. Encouraging and empowering, right? Yeah, for sure. I think that like that is absolutely the heart of it as confidence. I think and that’s something that I’ve struggled with for a very long time and I think mm big shifts in that for myself were one realizing it’s not just about my work. Like I think I always thought like oh am I as good as like these taught, you know photographers and everything and it’s it’s really hard to compare yourself because everyone is different and I’m sure Brandi knows like every designer has a different perspective and it’s just voice of how they produce their art. And so like how can you compare that? You know, and the truth is it’s so much more than just the work that you’re producing as the off chance that you’re giving two people. It’s your expertise. It’s all the other stuff too. And once I kind of shifted my mind off of like is my work good enough to be charging 5,000. Dollars to being like okay, here’s this incredible experience that I’m giving to people including this art that you know is good quality that back to me to see like I think the pressure was all on my work like are these photos worth $5,000 or whatever and once I I took the pressure off of that it was easier to see oh my gosh, I do you need to raise my prices. And then the other thing that I did was just to keep track of how much time I was pouring into each project. I have this little spreadsheet that I’ve been keeping for years and it’s you know, how long am I spending on calling and editing an emailing and location scouting and all this stuff like so now that I know how many hours I put into that and then you add on the fact that you know, there’s just experienced involved as well. And then also the final product the photos like that’s a huge amount of stuff and just seeing like I’m spending like twenty to forty hours of pre-game wedding day work on people’s elopement days. That’s like that’s crazy. That’s a lot of time that I’m you know, saving them from having to do and that’s a huge huge value Beyond just the photos until like knowing that like knowing my actual numbers of this is the average amount of time that I’m spending on this project. It felt wrong. We’re like ahead the freedom to be like, yeah. This is how much I charge and if I were to charge any less like, oh my gosh, I would be where underpaid for how much work is going into this and also just like my own experience and expertise of knowing things that couples wouldn’t know and all of that.

00:30:06 – 00:35:03

So I think I know not only your like a big numbers person and I think that really helped me to just to know like here here’s how much worse Really truly going into it and I’m always shocked by how many creatives are making less than minimum wage because America is a focus in a world on like we concentrate so much on vanity metrics that don’t matter. Yeah, and we failed to actually do what you just did Julie which is saying hey, I took time to really look at the metrics in my business that do matter how much time is being spent per how much I’m getting paid on a project and even being able to just take that data and apply it strategically to decisions. You make a year from now, for example, there might be aspects of your business that have incredible profit margins and others that don’t and you might even be able to start to shift some of your internal business strategy around, you know, enabling your creative work to work better for your bottom line. And so, you know, some people this looks like, you know doing up selling of products after the experience. Is this something for example as a photographer I discovered like in in my wedding experience, for example, a lot of people dead. Let me just say that’s to add one more thing before. I David the way things have always been done. Doesn’t have to be the way that you do them. It also isn’t always the most strategic way to go forward what worked a year for a year ago in your industry may not still apply them now even I mean amidst a pandemic it literally may not apply the strategies that were working may not work today and part of being a modern business owner means constantly adjusting and innovating on our strategies. I want to preface with that wage when I was a full-time wedding photographer. There was just an understood belief that you had to include albums in your packages and I I started to do a little bit of research and I found that most of my couples came to me with a budget for a wedding now, they didn’t really know what they wanted in that budget, but they knew how much they wanted to spend in the same probably applies even to branding right if you’re doing design or any sort of creative Pursuit people come in with an idea in their head of like, okay, here’s my budget of what I can afford and then you as a service provider are the expert communicating to them within that price. What are the what are the items that are included by their services or products and just by doing math? And talking to clients and getting feedback from them. I realized that many of them any of my couples already came in with a number and they really wanted a great experience on their wedding day the products after the fact they could buy six months later a year later and that product didn’t have to connect to the budget. They walked to the door in which essentially means that if I awoke the album from the outset like had been done and throughout the entire history of wedding photography. Yeah. I was automatically taking, you know, three to four hundred dollars right there out of my, you know, essentially my profit margin at the end of that experience with a couple would have been just as happy to add that on all a cart six months later when their their own bank accounts had resettled after the wedding they got in some gift money that they wanted to spend that money on things that would you know carry on as part of their legacy and one of those would be a wedding album. And so I shifted my entire strategy I did a service only packages they were extraordinary. I did ten hours long The wedding. I mean, I changed everything and I ended up increasing increasing my my bottom line as a result in people would purchase, you know, those products six to twelve months after and I built campaigns around it and I mark it separately and it became an additional Revenue stream for my business that changed everything about how I operated all by looking at data all by talking in qualitative and quantitative right getting getting those inputs and those insights from clients and so so much of that, you know, it’s it’s one of the things that honey book. I’m really passionate about too is like how do we equip people to really understand how to make those prices with them how to look at their data dashboard and they’re reporting and analytics and understand everything from you know, where our customers coming from so that you can double down on those strategies. Like if you think for example where we spend our time so many creative spend so much time on Instagram and yet when they go and they look at where business is coming from they might even see referrals far above social media on that list. I see this all the time referral. From other people in the industry and sometimes I’ll say well why don’t you double down and invest time in networking? Why aren’t you showing up to your local RTS group? Why aren’t you taking out that other creative for coffee, you know doing nowadays maybe not coffee. Maybe do a zoom virtual Panda, the same coffee meet up, you know, it’s it’s a little different but it’s still works. But this idea of if that’s where your your money is coming from if that’s a that’s the individuals that are booking you or are, you know hiring you for your services and they’re coming through that channel and they can you know afford the prices that you’re setting they they are excited to wage you. They’re they’re fitting that ideal mold and however you frame that out double down on that right double down on that.

00:35:03 – 00:40:12

So I don’t want to get too far off topic but I think one of the key insights here that I would hope anyone listening would take away is if even if you’re not a numbers person, even if you’re listening to this and you’re like I am creating going to keep a spreadsheet. Yeah. Well, actually that’s even better not going to use to sign up for honey book and you’ll have it off. For your beautifully and Visually and you love it and you’ll be able to digest it my key takeaway here is find a way that you get access to this data and maybe just once a year you take time and you sit and you think strategically about how to leverage that information in order to create a more profitable business and provide a better service to the people that you’re you’re serving because one more thing I’ll just add to this sort of pricing that you know, Julie you kind of touched on I want to take a highlight or you just highlight it is, you know, when you do raise your prices the bottom line is you’re then able to provide a different level of experience that you weren’t able to provide a lower rate and I’ve seen this across the board and I’ve seen you know, the types of experiences that are provided when a business is set up such that there’s client gifting involved right or their strategic surprise and Delight moments is how I talk about it Infiniti, but surprise and Delight moments where a client wasn’t expecting something and it was already built in to the expected costs for that experience wage. But they didn’t know it and so for them, it feels extra mile for them. It feels like you went above and beyond it’s the the the ribbon tied around the under-promise and over-deliver slogan that so many of us believed in in cling to and it’s this this concept that ultimately enables businesses when they do charge more to provide an even more extraordinary experience. And ultimately I like to look at it as a momentum wheel and when you have one rep in customer who loves your products starts to spin that momentum wheel the better you serve and the the ability to charge more enables you to serve better and better and better be more intentional and you know to use a bath and phrase Purple Cow about how you you know, Mark it through that service. It spins that momentum wheel faster and faster and faster and ultimately what ends up happening and this is something I experienced in my own business very much. So is that the emphasis and the stress and the pressure to go out and booked every single person who comes through the Door Pub? Releases because suddenly you have more inquiries than you have time to manage. That’s where you want to be in business. You want to be in a place where you can give freely when I talk about referrals that comes from that mindset of abundance, but you can build that abundance by serving people well and creating that referral mechanism and I actually teach it’s in a community building Space by teach a lot on this idea of you know nurturing somebody from 4 a.m. To Brand evangelists in the idea that that should be the goal. It’s not even about converting to customer once you get a customer. You’re only halfway done friends. You are halfway through the the fan right you gotta turn if you call everything I’ve heard public cause it’s super fast. Yeah, you know, everyone has a different phrase what they call it. I really like to think of it as a brand evangelists. It’s someone that goes running around screaming you have to hire Brandy. You have to hire Julie you have two thousand at Ali this person changed my life. They did XYZ it was extraordinary and everything that they say affirms the price that you charged from the very beginning and so it all connects. Yep. I’m going to I’m going to just go back a bit back to what we were talking about. When you started talking about females and Industry and things like that and transparency when I graduated from college. I had the opportunity pretty soon after I got in an entry level position at an in-house. I was working for the largest church at the time here in New Mexico as just like a web person and then an art director position opened up and you know straight out of college like there’s where am I going to look for like how much I should be making so I basically took whatever they were giving me and got some raises over the course of like three years. I grew the team to like six people and Julie was a part of that team at one point. Yeah, that’s how we met but wage when I left to start my own stuff I found out what I was doing research cuz I wasn’t sure if I actually wanted to go full time into my own thing or you know, how you’re kind of in that in Rome. Play some researching what like art and creative directors make and I was completely floored at how far less like that’s wage. And I am proper English. I was so far under the bar for like just a median creative and art director in the country and I was just like They knew it. I’m sure they knew it. They offered me something. I took it they gave me a couple of raises here and there to like make me feel better about it. But then it was just like okay, but even then that was like wow just because these people were hiring they say, you know, this is what you’ll come in at but I don’t know what people are actually making and so it was it was really a shock to me and said I ran into the idea of value-based pricing.

00:40:12 – 00:45:04

I don’t know if you know Sean Wes, he’s he’s a really huge influence on a lot of the stuff that I do but Thursday, I was I decided to start my own business and was trying to price my things and he he’s very much about like don’t lead the conversation by talking about what’s your budget? It’s not wage because then it then the whole thing is always about money, right? Yeah, and then also like what Julie was alluding to understanding that you are charging for more than just A logo or something. And from that point on that was like in 2011 if someone says how much would you charge me to do a logo? I say I don’t do logos. I do brand strategy and a large part of that and then that changes the conversation from the get-go on top of having like a client onboarding that asks questions that measures whether you guys will even be a fit. It’s I’ve always had a hard time even with like photography because I sort of have dabbled in that just as a hobby but it’s a whole other thing to try and price what you do on a value level and you have to really look at you know, not just being a technician like I know how to use this software at all so long I I have I have insight into color psychology and you know Finding your brand evangelists and all these other things and so what’s what’s your what’s your thoughts on like people doing something? That’s not quite as tangible as handing over some photos to you know, because that is very it is very like you’re here on my wedding day for twelve hours, right? Oh, I see that. Okay, you’re here. I see your face in front of me. You’re taking pictures when you handed over and I give you money as opposed to like, I need a whole brand strategy and a lot of it is you’re paying me to think right? You’re paying me to help you work out problems. You’re not just giving me like I’m a physical thing especially now not even people need business cards as much and all the print things. So what’s your advice to like? I know my advice and people have heard my advice. But what what are your thoughts on Creative professionals designers people that don’t necessarily deliver a physical tangible thing all the time such. This is a really great question. And before we even dive into the question, you said two things. I want to highlight to home. Have like a verbal highlighter. I apologize. It’s no I love it will cover. Is it out? Of course, of course, it’s the classic yellow highlighter. It’s like old-school, you know where it’s it’s literally think it’s not highlight. You know l i t e I was going to say, I think I think that’s what it’s called like children of the 90. No. Joy. No, I have a picture in my head exactly what you’re talking about reading your dunkaroos. I’m thirty-eight. So yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Okay. So two things I want to highlight one of them here, you know, you mentioned this idea of leading value, you know, and and having been a sort of what you leave with in in my world and my realm I’ve always referred to it as relation relation ality over transaction. Ality this idea that you need to approach a client as a relationship and not a transaction from the Dodge Dart. And so I think that yeah that mindset shifts everything that mindset then transforms how you even set up your brochure or your pricing PDF, for example, because instead of leading with your birth And here’s my deliverable it is here’s who I am. Here’s what I love. Here’s how I think here’s what I can do. Here’s here’s you know sort of a proposal to you. Oh, by the way, here’s what it costs and the importance of that is yet. Again, you’re leading with that value and you’re leading with that relationship and you’re positioning it from a very different Vantage Point than creating something to be so Technical and professional as a logo $500 right. Now. There are people that are always going to maintain that transactional approach to business. I do believe though, they attract very different class. Yes, and some people who want that you got it. That’s the clients that the three of us. This Trio is referring to so if you’re someone that kind of like look, I just want to design the logo and I want to be done. I don’t want to do the rest of it then make sure the advice we’re giving right here might not even be the best fit for you. I like to kind of preface that one. It’s like a side little, you know, note beside the Highlight, but if you’re someone that says look, I want to work less Mekong. More work with clients that just lightly on fire creatively appreciate what I have to offer. This is the route that I took to get to that place and I’m seeing some nods here. So I think that’s kind of what we’re affirming. That’s the first highlight relational over transactional one other thing. That brand is just like slid in there with like quiet pre-qualification. She’s like sliding into the DM prid like, you know just random but that is so critical.

00:45:04 – 00:50:28

So I believe in intentional resistance so is what I call it intentional resistance in the pricing sort of strategy with a client. So once once a client says hey, I’m interested. I love a little bit of intentional resistance to gauge their interest and everyone. Does this a little bit differently. I used to have a fridge on their contact form had a slot of scale from 1 to 5. This is the Marantz is back in the day just in Marion Rance think it was either a sliding scale that was like out of one to five how interested are you in working with Justin and Mary and Ed? Remember her talking about this and I thought genius because if they’re not going to put five then they might as well not inquire and it was point. It’s clear that they only want to work with people who are fired up and passionate about wanting to work with them. She just the game that you just a psychology of their relationship it almost creates an what we like to think of like an opposing interview process. So it’s not. Hey, I’m interviewing Brandy about her design expertise. It’s like break interviewing me to find out if I’m the right fit to be a client with yeah changes the dynamic and therefore changes the entire experience for both parties. So that intentional resistance could be a questionnaire. It could be a little you know gave information. It could be, you know wanting to set up an in-person consult before proceeding even to talk about pricing. However, you as a business owner determine you want to do that. I just want to highlight it intentional resistance. I think it’s wrong you’re teaching now. Let’s jump into a brandy asked which is around. You know, what if you’re selling something that maybe is difficult to even Define in terms of a physical product. I’m not going to have a book arrive at my doorstep. There’s not going to be home. You sure that gets shipped to me. I’m offering you know sort of either I’m a knowledge broker and an offering my knowledge and I’m almost consulting or the the product quote on quote is you know, sort of intertwined inextricably with the information that I can provide you with my expertise my insight my strategy and so on and so forth. Look, I think I think there are key tenets that I’ve seen be really successful in these types of working relationships cuz you have to remember although I am a business owner. I also work with designers worked with several designers. I believe that the designers I work with are some of the reasons why I’ve been a successful I worked with brand marketing strategists that have done everything from help me to launch. We just on the personal side. I just launched a long-lived small business t-shirt collection. We don’t know that yeah hundred percent of the profit to Freelancers Union to raise money for business owners impacted by covid-19. Writing a book. I need to grow my email list and I don’t really want to sell anything because right now I love the work that I do day in and day out. I’ve got a nine-to-five job honeybook Rising tide. It’s my life. I don’t I don’t want to go out and start selling things to to build my list. I’m not going to create a course right now. I’m not going to any of these things but I got a book coming out. So I sat down and I talked with a marketing strategist and the marketing strategist said to me. Well, what what is it that people love? What is your why and she started going through this whole thought process that I never would have gone down around. What are you passionate about it what resonates with people and I started talking about these values and I’m like, I think people follow me because you know, they can connect with what I really care about and they can tell that I’m genuine and they can tell that if push comes to shove I will fight for them. That is who I am and and then she said, okay, what do you fight for? We talked about community at home belonging. I talked about small business. And so we started to build a strategy. So without ruining the surprise of what’s coming in August, you know, basically I sat with someone who used their knowledge their expertise of working with other breeds. And businesses to build an entire strategy around helping me to hit long-term career goals in my book publishers in 2021 in a way that aligns with my values and aligns with my ability to serve people well and to create a personal branding experience that aligns with the community when I filter over the last five years and feels right because it is right. I never would have been able to come up with that. If I didn’t have that knowledge experience, you know kind of value exchange with with someone else who’s done this I probably would have followed a method that wasn’t going to work or would have rubbed people the wrong way because I was selling it not from a place of authentic passion, but because I thought I had to in order to reach a career goal, which is never how I’ve ever achieved anything of success in so I say that to say that when I first sat down with this person, you know to be honest, I wasn’t really sure what I was getting out of it. I I didn’t really know at the end of the day whether this is going to be successful or not. That’s the risk that we often undertake in any kind of business relationship, but I cannot log With her values, I could see testimonials of people that she’d worked with. I valued their reviews and the fact that they said don’t even ask questions just fed to it, you know and that and for me I was like, okay, I will and along the way you know, there are key tenets that I noticed, you know, very clear communication the ability to walk anticipate my weak spots and kind of like she’ll jump in and you know, she she has her strategies for how she communicates and how she delivers deliverables that are you know, physical products or even really digital ones off but just through this this relationship and that’s really what it becomes it becomes a business relationship and I think it is less about you know, she didn’t price me out and say like I’m going to help you reach this metric and it’s going to cost this much.

00:50:28 – 00:55:08

She said hey, you know, here’s my monthly retainer to work with me. I know it’s steep. But at any time, you know after we had a set contract. If it’s not working wage I want to encourage you to you know, go find somebody else but I think I think we’re going to head out of the park and my goal is that you’ll look back and say I would have paid you twice as much and that I was like done, you know, like I loved that mindset and I’ll be honest. I would pay her twice as much and she’s probably listening and I’m probably going to get an invoice. It’s true. I think it’s a free advertising. I know I know right? I mean well, yeah, hold on. I’m all about sharing referrals, but I might keep her to me is coming up on Tuesday. I think I think there there are some takeaways there and I hope I hope that’s a value. I hope you can pull some some good nuggets from that those a really amazing conversation and you know, one of the things that I was going to ask Natalie was, you know, once you had of a price that you feel confident in like, how do you share that with your potential clients in a way that really communicates that value wage? Didn’t ask it because I felt like the whole second half of the conversation was answering that question. So it’s sort of did but I also I actually wrote down that same question and didn’t asking it my question as and maybe we can just chat about this for just a couple of minutes. My question was, you know, it’s all about relationships right and and being able to cultivate relationships with people before you know, they you you have to ask it’s the Gary V jab jab jab right hook like give give give and then ask but when it comes to pricing and I’ve been I’ve been dealing with this lately. It’s like I’ve been getting a lot more inquiries or people responding like they’ve like people have never responded to me this way before like they are now and then I’m like, okay, so they’re asking me about stuff but it’s not like a higher you so is this the place to go? Well, I can help you with that. And here’s how or do I keep pushing the relationship a little more and pushing the like when is it like like right hook time? When is it hears asked I know you need this. You said you need this? You said you appreciate this? Here’s how I can help you and it’s I don’t know $250 for a session or whatever. So yeah. Yeah God. Yeah, it is really hard. Especially. I mean, I I just have a hard time asking for money and asking for the sale cuz I am not like a super forward person and so I I do feel like that that’s a hard thing to kind of figure out the balance but I think you can also just come back and be like, you know, if you can answer if you can see their need an answer their questions before or asking them and you know, you’re already showing what you can do for them and in those conversations that you’ve already had. I think it’s okay to be like hey like yep. Love to help you with this and here’s some of the really awesome stuff that we can accomplish and do through this and then if they’re still not ready, you can keep having that conversation of helping them and then hopefully it will lead to them actually, you know, officially working with you. Yeah. So I hope all of you enjoyed the conversation. I hope that you got a lot of value out of our choice and value and I know I did and I was taking notes for myself and I was like I need to re listen to this episode not just for quality control, but like like a listener would listen to this episode because she just I love when I love when people get on fire about what they’re talking about. Whatever like I don’t care what it is like as soon as you you just know the things that get people fired up. And yeah, I know I have those things you have those things. It’s like you just flip that switch and it’s just like okay wind him up and watch him go. Yeah. Definitely. I she was totally like that. Yeah, I definitely am going to Bath take some of the things that we talked about things that I think kind of have been in the back of my head but need like full attention to say like this is that seems to be part of my marketing strategy and how I’m putting myself for sure and actually like making decisions based on those things that I do believe but yeah, it was such a great conversation. I think it would be really helpful no matter where you are if you’re starting out obviously that’s incredibly helpful, but it doesn’t matter how far into your business you are that stuff like you need that that push towards all the right things.

00:55:08 – 00:56:42

Yeah, the the thing that song Wrote down that I was like, oh, I hadn’t thought about it like that. It’s like how your pricing now like how has your pricing developed since you first started? I was just thinking like God well because my pricing has always been expensive for this Market. I haven’t changed it much since I started my business like nine years ago. It’s yeah she did very little and I’m just like, okay, I think I think I need to make some time to revisit. Yeah time to take a look at that. So anyway, she was super helpful and I hope you guys will check her out of all of the links to everything that she talked about will be on on slash in our show notes. All right, everybody. That’s our episode for today. If you enjoy this show and want to support us off one of our exclusive patrons over at patreon.com landscape where you’ll have access to some extended episodes and fun bonus contents design speaks is dead. Is by Kenneth Nathan and Dakota Coast audio production by the podcast base. Thanks to Colin from vespertine for our theme music. You can find best 14 on Apple music and Spotify offer design speaks is a project of Brandy see designed. It is recorded and produced in the shadow of the watermelon pink Sandia Mountains near Albuquerque, New Mexico, you can leave us a note on Instagram at designs Fitchburg cast and you can find all current and past episodes at designs fix podcast.com. Thanks again for listening until next time.